Topic: AV Receivers vs Integrated Amps

[Strings]

Even direct stereo will use the Audyssey settings for distance and trim.

Nonetheless, I've just been guessing what the problem could be. There are too many variables. Dapat puntahan na nga natin ang S&S! Hehe. 

good idea yan, with your wealth of experience it should be easy to find the problem 

[streetsmart]

hmm, i watched some videos of how to setup audyssey. multiple locations are read and plotted, including lateral positions left and right which is especially needed if the listening area is wide. my question then is doesn't audyssey actually use they data to correct imaging problems?

Audyssey will ensure that the volume of each channel is balanced at the main listening position, that the proper delays are provided for each channel, that the frequency response is flat (with the limitation mainly being the processing power of the AVR) and that the effects of unwanted reflections are minimized. All of these should help imaging, but what if the Audyssey setup was not properly done?

[streetsmart]

good idea yan, with your wealth of experience it should be easy to find the problem 

Haha! 

Usually, it's not that hard to find the problem but sometimes, it's very hard. In this particular case, the AVR is an Onkyo and I'm not familiar with Onkyos. Might take a LOT of time and after many hours, you find out that it's some silly setting sa AVR.

[markcrenz]

Even direct stereo will use the Audyssey settings for distance and trim.

Nonetheless, I've just been guessing what the problem could be. There are too many variables. Dapat puntahan na nga natin ang S&S! Hehe.  

me too! final guess: aside from the "theories" i presented earlier, stereo amps have simpler circuits and are optimized to reproduce analog stereo sound without the associated delay and phase problems introduced by digital processing within the a/vr.

[audiojunkie]

did you experience any imaging problems with that setup during stereo listening? 

my apology for late response. I had that problem when I was using 80 w/c AVR to power paradigm reference 60, that I thought my speakers were muffled & sloppy. But when I added a more powerful amp my speakers came alive, it's like I got  another speakers.

I agree with everyone's views, most esp. to sir Mark's opinions. There are lots of variables to be considered. First , the source/media quality, player has its own signature also how the data is being read, next preamp or processor (heart & brain of the system ) then power amps and the speakers, but we should not forget the links between these components, IC & SP cables have their own sound signatures dependent to components connected, as we always hear from the masters "synergy".

 As for my personal opinion, for separate 2-channel Audio setup I would prefer source + preamp + amp all interconnected with balance/XLR cables, (fully balance)Biwire or much better bi-amp from power amps to speakers. and ofcourse proper room acoustics,, it's just for me...  

[Strings]

my apology for late response. I had that problem when I was using 80 w/c AVR to power paradigm reference 60, that I thought my speakers were muffled & sloppy. But when I added a more powerful amp my speakers came alive, it's like I got  another speakers.

haha, no problem, more than anything else, i appreciate you guys sharing your opinions and helping out a newbie like me
so when you inserted a monoblock amp between a/vr and speaker, you heard significant improvements enough to resolve the imaging problem? does this mean imaging problem occurred because your overall system lacked power to drive the paradigms?

I agree with everyone's views, most esp. to sir Mark's opinions. There are lots of variables to be considered. First , the source/media quality, player has its own signature also how the data is being read, next preamp or processor (heart & brain of the system ) then power amps and the speakers, but we should not forget the links between these components, IC & SP cables have their own sound signatures dependent to components connected, as we always hear from the masters "synergy".

it was my impression that these variable only affected the sound's clarity and tonal qualities. what makes most sense to me with regards what affects imaging is the mixing of the music track itself (ie. incorporating delays to make it appear further) and room acoustics. and to correct imaging problems, companies implement correction softwares like audyssey, ypao, mcacc, etc. does this mean any of the above mention variable could actually affect imaging?

 As for my personal opinion, for separate 2-channel Audio setup I would prefer source + preamp + amp all interconnected with balance/XLR cables, (fully balance)Biwire or much better bi-amp from power amps to speakers. and ofcourse proper room acoustics,, it's just for me...  

i might be understanding the sequence of gear setup wrong. so its actually souce -> preamp (monoblock amps?) -> receiver?

me too! final guess: aside from the "theories" i presented earlier, stereo amps have simpler circuits and are optimized to reproduce analog stereo sound without the associated delay and phase problems introduced by digital processing within the a/vr.

this makes sense to me too, imaging was lost due to digital processing.

nangangati na ko to have gears of my own to play with hehe
ang symptoms ba ng sars ay exclusive to wanting to upgrade or includes the want to have my first setup 

[Conan]

AFAIK S&S guys there don't use Audyssey on their HT demo. I've also listened to the Paradigm FS they have there paired with an Onkyo 508 and I also found the 2 channel imaging to be really wide yet sounds "manipis" as if the speakers are out of phase.

[streetsmart]

AFAIK S&S guys there don't use Audyssey on their HT demo. I've also listened to the Paradigm FS they have there paired with an Onkyo 508 and I also found the 2 channel imaging to be really wide yet sounds "manipis" as if the speakers are out of phase.

Yup, this is exactly what I'm thinking cuz that's the classic test for phase. "In-phase" puts the image in the center while "out of phase" diffuses the sound.

[at_sunset_blvd]

I started w/ AUDIO eversince & when I was trying the waters of HT so I just connected the line-outs of a laserdisc player to the Integrated amplifier then I got a perfectly nice sounding 2.1 sound for HT & the upgrades started from there on, walang katapusan na

So for me better yung separate ang HT & AUDIO if you are into both but if you're not very concern w/ imaging & focus in AUDIO then go for a HT set-up. Entertainment pa atsaka pwedi pang kantahan

[audiojunkie]

so when you inserted a monoblock amp between a/vr and speaker, you heard significant improvements enough to resolve the imaging problem? does this mean imaging problem occurred because your overall system lacked power to drive the paradigms?

it was my impression that these variable only affected the sound's clarity and tonal qualities. what makes most sense to me with regards what affects imaging is the mixing of the music track itself (ie. incorporating delays to make it appear further) and room acoustics. and to correct imaging problems, companies implement correction softwares like audyssey, ypao, mcacc, etc. does this mean any of the above mention variable could actually affect imaging?

 might be understanding the sequence of gear setup wrong. so its actually souce -> preamp (monoblock amps?) -> receiver?

- it's possible lacked of power or low damping factor of the AVR caused imaging problem.

- if the source media is the main factor that affects imaging and we need these softwares to correct (like cosmetics) or tailor the sound we wanted to hear from our system, so then we need to run them everytime we change music material...

-  receiver can be used also as preamp + external power amp.

 

[Tempter]

Dahil sa discussion dito, mejo napaisip tuloy ako... 

Napansin ko kasi pag nagcalibrate ako via Audyssey, hindi ako satisfied sa crossover settings nya. Sumasakit ang ulo ko pag nakinig ako sa music ng matagal. Kaya ang ginagawa ko ay manual settings ng crossovers ng lahat ng speakers.

Does this mean close to useless tong Audyssey? Or implementation ng Onkyo ang may problema?

Yung sa pagsakit ng ulo ko sa matagal na pakikinig, may kinalaman kaya yung imaging na tinutukoy nyo?

 

[streetsmart]

Dahil sa discussion dito, mejo napaisip tuloy ako... 

Napansin ko kasi pag nagcalibrate ako via Audyssey, hindi ako satisfied sa crossover settings nya. Sumasakit ang ulo ko pag nakinig ako sa music ng matagal. Kaya ang ginagawa ko ay manual settings ng crossovers ng lahat ng speakers.

Does this mean close to useless tong Audyssey? Or implementation ng Onkyo ang may problema?

Yung sa pagsakit ng ulo ko sa matagal na pakikinig, may kinalaman kaya yung imaging na tinutukoy nyo?

 

Baka mali lang ang paggamit mo ng Audyssey. Try mo sundan itong guide:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

[Tempter]

Baka mali lang ang paggamit mo ng Audyssey. Try mo sundan itong guide:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

Actually sir, nabasa ko na yang tips na yan. And sigurado ako na 99% tama ang ginagawa ko kung hindi man 100%. And midnight ako nagcacalibrate para minimal ang ingay. Hindi kaya may prob ang unit ko? Or ung mic ko? Napapansin ko kasi sineset nya to 150Hz yung front, surround at center. Pero ang gamit kong speaker ay medyo maliit lang dahil galing sa HTIB to. Pero di ba dapat Audyssey will make the most out of my setup? Or kelangan ko pa ng magandang speakers para lang maappreciate ang potential ng Audyssey?

[Onkyo606]

Dahil sa discussion dito, mejo napaisip tuloy ako... 

Napansin ko kasi pag nagcalibrate ako via Audyssey, hindi ako satisfied sa crossover settings nya. Sumasakit ang ulo ko pag nakinig ako sa music ng matagal. Kaya ang ginagawa ko ay manual settings ng crossovers ng lahat ng speakers.

Does this mean close to useless tong Audyssey? Or implementation ng Onkyo ang may problema?

Yung sa pagsakit ng ulo ko sa matagal na pakikinig, may kinalaman kaya yung imaging na tinutukoy nyo?

 

audyssey is a very powerful tool. results may be to your liking or not but if it becomes undesirebale to you, its not the fault of the audyssey but your preference setting in. level calibration results may sometime not fit your taste and and there are times even the cross over may not be above 60 hz but from audyssey site, anything below 60 can be set to 60 or higher depending on the capacity of the speaker, i normally set  mine to 80 hz. audyssey takes into consideration the listening environment and any acoustic properties that comes with it and just try to optimize it,it can only do so much, this tool is specially essential to ensure that sound coming from the speakers reaches your ear at your listening position accurately or close to it in the realm of time delay.

[Onkyo606]

Actually sir, nabasa ko na yang tips na yan. And sigurado ako na 99% tama ang ginagawa ko kung hindi man 100%. And midnight ako nagcacalibrate para minimal ang ingay. Hindi kaya may prob ang unit ko? Or ung mic ko? Napapansin ko kasi sineset nya to 150Hz yung front, surround at center. Pero ang gamit kong speaker ay medyo maliit lang dahil galing sa HTIB to. Pero di ba dapat Audyssey will make the most out of my setup? Or kelangan ko pa ng magandang speakers para lang maappreciate ang potential ng Audyssey?

change your speaker, audyssey is not at fault here, HTIB speakers can only do so much and at a slightly higher listening level, masakit na talaga sa tenga ang HTIB speaker, saliit ng mga drivers nya, you cant expect much.

no offense meant sir but as you said, audyssey maixmisez your system so it will only work within limitations of what you have.

[jao143]

suggestion lang sir T, siguro mas maganda kung mag audyssey thread tayo para matackle natin ito.   this would be an interesting thread

[Tempter]

Thanks!

Ang pagkakaintindi ko kasi sa Audyssey e it should at least set all the range para masigurado na walang mawawala na frequency. Dahil sinet nya to 150hz lahat ng other speakers except my sub, which I think can only handle up to 120Hz, ibig sabhin meron frequency gap from 121 to 149Hz.  

[Tempter]

suggestion lang sir T, siguro mas maganda kung mag audyssey thread tayo para matackle natin ito.   this would be an interesting thread

Yeah mas maganda nga siguro kung bagong thread. Kaya lang ko kasi naisingit dito dahil dun sa imaging problem, baka may kinalaman din dito sa issue ko. 

[streetsmart]

Actually sir, nabasa ko na yang tips na yan. And sigurado ako na 99% tama ang ginagawa ko kung hindi man 100%. And midnight ako nagcacalibrate para minimal ang ingay. Hindi kaya may prob ang unit ko? Or ung mic ko? Napapansin ko kasi sineset nya to 150Hz yung front, surround at center. Pero ang gamit kong speaker ay medyo maliit lang dahil galing sa HTIB to. Pero di ba dapat Audyssey will make the most out of my setup? Or kelangan ko pa ng magandang speakers para lang maappreciate ang potential ng Audyssey?

If you use HTIB speakers, it's not surprising that the crossover is set at 150 Hz. Hanggang doon lang talaga ang kaya ng speakers. If you want to improve your system, you must change the speakers. The new speakers don't have to be very expensive. Ang dami ngang 2nd hand speakers sa marketplace na magaganda pero mura.

[Tempter]

If you use HTIB speakers, it's not surprising that the crossover is set at 150 Hz. Hanggang doon lang talaga ang kaya ng speakers. If you want to improve your system, you must change the speakers. The new speakers don't have to be very expensive. Ang dami ngang 2nd hand speakers sa marketplace na magaganda pero mura.

Noted sir, mukang kelangan nga siguro ma-hapgreyd ang speakers to full-size para marealize ang true potential ng Audyssey. 

Thanks!

[Onkyo606]

suggestion lang sir T, siguro mas maganda kung mag audyssey thread tayo para matackle natin ito.   this would be an interesting thread

yung link na binigay ni sir mark is very informative, lahat halos nandun na,

audyssey for it to be effective,there must be acceptance of the difference between REFERENCE versus PREFERENCE, from my little undersatnding of audyssey, based readings and teachings learned from sir mark and mike c would always have its limitations if PREFERENCE sets in. Immaterial of whether your using audyssey pro, xt, xt32 or 2EQ, if you DONT LIKE the result, it has no value to you. The DONT LIKE realm though does not mean Audyssey is not an effective and efficient tool.

[Tempter]

yung link na binigay ni sir mark is very informative, lahat halos nandun na,

audyssey for it to be effective,there must be acceptance of the difference between REFERENCE versus PREFERENCE, from my little undersatnding of audyssey, based readings and teachings learned from sir mark and mike c would always have its limitations if PREFERENCE sets in. Immaterial of whether your using audyssey pro, xt, xt32 or 2EQ, if you DONT LIKE the result, it has no value to you. The DONT LIKE realm though does not mean Audyssey is not an effective and efficient tool.

I am newbie to these, but this is not about REFERENCE and PREFERENCE, my issue was about the settings given by the calibration. That there was a gap in the frequencies, making the overall sound innacurate and tinny...

Kaya I believe to really appreciate AUDYSSEY, kelangan maganda rin ang lahat ng gamit mo... So don't rely on Audyssey if your speakers are not up to the task...

[streetsmart]

I am newbie to these, but this is not about REFERENCE and PREFERENCE, my issue was about the settings given by the calibration. That there was a gap in the frequencies, making the overall sound innacurate and tinny...

Kaya I believe to really appreciate AUDYSSEY, kelangan maganda rin ang lahat ng gamit mo... So don't rely on Audyssey if your speakers are not up to the task...

Di naman kailangang reference standard lahat ng gamit mo. In fact, sa speakers, pwede ka nga rin bumili ng gawa ni AAudio. DIY pero maganda. Definitely much better than HTIB. Kung gusto mong mas mura pa, bumili ka ng 2nd hand na AAudio. Dami rin lumulutang dito.

[Tempter]

Di naman kailangang reference standard lahat ng gamit mo. In fact, sa speakers, pwede ka nga rin bumili ng gawa ni AAudio. DIY pero maganda. Definitely much better than HTIB. Kung gusto mong mas mura pa, bumili ka ng 2nd hand na AAudio. Dami rin lumulutang dito.

Tama kayo sir, mukang maganda nga ang AAUDIO kaya lang no budget pa kasi kaya maximize lang muna kung anong meron. And as far as i know, maganda ang frequency range ng mga speakers nya, so comparable to sa mga magagandang branded speakers. Nag-expect lang kasi ako na dahil mukang magaling ang pagkakagawa ng Audyssey algorithm e magagawa nyang tumunog ng maganda kahit na hindi naman ganon kaganda ang speakers mo. Pero sabi nyo nga baka yan lang ang inakala nyang kaya ng speakers ko kaya sa ganyan nya sinet. Pero ang nakakatawa dito nung ng magmanual set nako to cover full range, naging maganda na ang tunog. So kung magagawa yun ng Audyssey by itself (without manual intervention) then mas bibilib ako sa kanya... 

Since these speaker set is from an HTIB, then I sincerely believe na kaya nyang icover ang full range. Dahil hindi namn siguro gagawa ang isang known brand like PANASONIC ng HT system which will leave a gap on the frequencies, making the sound innacurate.

[streetsmart]

Tama kayo sir, mukang maganda nga ang AAUDIO kaya lang no budget pa kasi kaya maximize lang muna kung anong meron. And as far as i know, maganda ang frequency range ng mga speakers nya, so comparable to sa mga magagandang branded speakers. Nag-expect lang kasi ako na dahil mukang magaling ang pagkakagawa ng Audyssey algorithm e magagawa nyang tumunog ng maganda kahit na hindi naman ganon kaganda ang speakers mo. Pero sabi nyo nga baka yan lang ang inakala nyang kaya ng speakers ko kaya sa ganyan nya sinet. Pero ang nakakatawa dito nung ng magmanual set nako to cover full range, naging maganda na ang tunog. So kung magagawa yun ng Audyssey by itself (without manual intervention) then mas bibilib ako sa kanya... 

Since these speaker set is from an HTIB, then I sincerely believe na kaya nyang icov ang full range. Dahil hindi namn siguro gagawa ang isang known brand like PANASONIC ng HT system which will leave a gap on the frequencies, making the sound innacurate.

We can get a little more technical ... After the Audyssey MultEQ calibration, it set the crossover to 150 Hz. That means that at 150 Hz, the frequency response was more than 3 db down and the speaker was at the limit of its flat frequency response. MultEQ will create a frequency and time domain correction filter only down to 150 Hz and not any lower. Otherwise, if MultEQ were to correct even below what the speaker is capable of delivering (in this case, 150 Hz), it might strain and even destroy the speakers.

In reality, however, the output of the speakers does not abruptly stop at its -3db point. Therefore, it is possible to lower the crossover below 150 Hz (say down to 120 Hz) and the speaker will produce sound from 120 - 150 Hz. However, the sound will not be corrected by MultEQ and it will likely be low in volume. On the other hand, if you have a subwoofer which can handle up to 150 Hz, you could keep the crossover at 150 Hz.

With regard to the quality of HTIB speakers by Panasonic or any other big-name brand, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. Frankly, I think that in general, Japanese manufacturers (Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Denon, etc.) are pretty good at electronics. For speakers, however, they aren't very good - lalo na siguro kung HTIB because the budget is limited.

[Tempter]

We can get a little more technical ... After the Audyssey MultEQ calibration, it set the crossover to 150 Hz. That means that at 150 Hz, the frequency response was more than 3 db down and the speaker was at the limit of its flat frequency response. MultEQ will create a frequency and time domain correction filter only down to 150 Hz and not any lower. Otherwise, if MultEQ were to correct even below what the speaker is capable of delivering (in this case, 150 Hz), it might strain and even destroy the speakers.

In reality, however, the output of the speakers does not abruptly stop at its -3db point. Therefore, it is possible to lower the crossover below 150 Hz (say down to 120 Hz) and the speaker will produce sound from 120 - 150 Hz. However, the sound will not be corrected by MultEQ and it will likely be low in volume. On the other hand, if you have a subwoofer which can handle up to 150 Hz, you could keep the crossover at 150 Hz.

With regard to the quality of HTIB speakers by Panasonic or any other big-name brand, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. Frankly, I think that in general, Japanese manufacturers (Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Denon, etc.) are pretty good at electronics. For speakers, however, they aren't very good - lalo na siguro kung HTIB because the budget is limited.

Agreed. Yes, Panasonic is not known for good speakers. And tanggap ko rin naman ang limitations nito. My reasoning lang kasi, dahil pag nakakabit to sa original processor nya, ok naman at acceptable ang tunog nya, meaning they sound not lacking though medyo kulang sya sa Volume department. So i believe kaya nya ioutput yung full range with its speaker combination. Sensya na medyo hindi pako talaga well-versed pagdating sa technicalities dahil kakaumpisa ko pa lang din sa hobby na to. Just trying to get more inputs as much as possible to be in the right path.

Maybe Audyssey was designed with decent speakers in mind at the least. Oh well, i guess i have to live with manual crossover settings at the moment until i have the budget to get full-sized speakers. 

Pero malaki ba talaga ang posibilidad na masira either ung speaker or ung receiver kung ibababa mo ang crossover against the one set by Audyssey calibration? 

[Conan]

Agreed. Yes, Panasonic is not known for good speakers. And tanggap ko rin naman ang limitations nito. My reasoning lang kasi, dahil pag nakakabit to sa original processor nya, ok naman at acceptable ang tunog nya, meaning they sound not lacking though medyo kulang sya sa Volume department. So i believe kaya nya ioutput yung full range with its speaker combination. Sensya na medyo hindi pako talaga well-versed pagdating sa technicalities dahil kakaumpisa ko pa lang din sa hobby na to. Just trying to get more inputs as much as possible to be in the right path.

Maybe Audyssey was designed with decent speakers in mind at the least. Oh well, i guess i have to live with manual crossover settings at the moment until i have the budget to get full-sized speakers.  

Pero malaki ba talaga ang posibilidad na masira either ung speaker or ung receiver kung ibababa mo ang crossover against the one set by Audyssey calibration?  

What A/V receiver are you using? Are you sure it can drive 4 ohm HTIB speakers? Your Panasonic HTIB receiver was made to work with your speakers' frequency capabilities and also it's 4 ohm impedance.

[Tempter]

What A/V receiver are you using? Are you sure it can drive 4 ohm HTIB speakers?

My HTIB speakers are 6 - 8 Ohms...

[Conan]

My HTIB speakers are 6 - 8 Ohms...

Ah ok that's good, so what receiver?

[markcrenz]

malayo na narating ng thread na to