Topic: Newbie & Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Receivers/Amplifiers

[Garp]

when the BIG boys talk, small boys (like me) listen and enjoy and learn.  candid and healthy exchanges above surely educate.

Akyat, good idea: Leach and GC shootout or even just audition.  I won't miss that thing.

Sama ko dyan! Want to hear Leach perform too. As I also don't have strong preferences or conviction about tube vs. ss, it would be nice to hear din how it fares vs. tubes. Just an idea though.

[Garp]

 we fall, we stand up, we try something new.

well fall allright--at least I did big time. I blew the midrange drivers of my speaker testing my damn GC--zapped it with 25V DC despite taking advice from Joan2. Oh well part of the fun I guess.

[akyatbundok]

well fall allright--at least I did big time. I blew the midrange drivers of my speaker testing my d**n GC--zapped it with 25V DC despite taking advice from Joan2. Oh well part of the fun I guess.

kaya matutuloy lang ang shootout pag may maglalakas loob pagamit ng speakers hehehe.

[ArnieSwarzie]

Lets start collecting shares or donations. what shall we zapped? B&W, Monitor audio, Diamonds, Missions? Then if it survived the shootout, we raffle it among the donors. what do you think from my wild idea?

[Mika]

Sama ko dyan! Want to hear Leach perform too. As I also don't have strong preferences or conviction about tube vs. ss, it would be nice to hear din how it fares vs. tubes. Just an idea though.

count me in also...

so where/when na nga ba mga sirs?  

mika

[losi_phile]

got this from this link : http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio.shtml -

...The differences between one amplifier's performance and another's, although easily measurable, are almost always inaudible. Even the minority of audiophiles who claim to hear variations from one amp to the next have to work very hard to do so....

Are there any truth to this statement?  Are we going to hear differences between the Leach and the GC?  I'd like to build one GC, with the help of someone, of course.  Pwede bang pagawa na lang, di ako magaling sa electronics eh?

[endless]

forgive me kung medyo OT itong itatanong ko. i like to know if this is an a/v receiver amplifier section problem:

after a power failure there's some power fluctuation and the receiver stops working. the lights on the receiver were still working including the LCD except an "OVERLOAD" word scrolls across the LCD. each time you press a button "switch off power" will be displayed on the LCD. there's no sound whatsoever the receiver is crippled.

receiver was brought to a (stupid)repair shop and was diagnose with 3 damaged amplifier modules. the modules was ordered abroad which cost an arm and a leg but after replacing the supposed broken modules the receiver is still not working exactly as before.

could it be the amplifier section? or could it be the overload protection circuits? but why didn't it reset by itself? can the power fluctuation damaged the overload protection circuitry that easily? is the overload protection circuit easy to fix?

any help will be appreciated.

[akyatbundok]

...The differences between one amplifier's performance and another's, although easily measurable, are almost always inaudible. Even the minority of audiophiles who claim to hear variations from one amp to the next have to work very hard to do so....

Are there any truth to this statement?  Are we going to hear differences between the Leach and the GC?  I'd like to build one GC, with the help of someone, of course.  Pwede bang pagawa na lang, di ako magaling sa electronics eh?

ako din... mas gusto ko magpagawa na lang sa expert kaysa gawin ko ng sarili... if the price is right.

about amps sounding the same, i don't quite agree with the article cuz i have 5 amps and i do hear a difference.  even equal-powered amps have a difference in tonal balance.  the thing is... some amps will sound the same and some amps will sound different.  for instance, when playing vocals or guitar it may be hard to distinguish the sound of the luxman lv-105 from the marantz sr7300.  but play something with a double bass, and you will hear the difference in bass definition.  sony 333es and sansui a707 are bass-heavy with soft treble.  onkyo 819rs has sharp treble.  how did i compare?  with great risk & difficulty!!  i was able to switch back & forth between 2 amps because my dvd/cd player has 2 audio outputs.  i connected 2 amps to 1 speaker pair and switched between amps making sure that the speaker switch of one amp is on while the other is off.  dangerous isn't it??  don't try this at home folks.  its hard to resist when curiosity starts to itch.

[s2kov]

joan2,

I am interested in building the leach amp..... 8)How can you help me on this??? ::)Thanks....

[joan2]

joan2,

I am interested in building the leach amp..... 8)How can you help me on this??? ::)Thanks....

you can start here:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/circuit.pdf
and this:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/superamp/ you can learn more about the author here:http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/

go back to me after you have read them.....

jojo has a working unit, a leach lo-tim ver 4.5 amps. what i do is the leach bouble barreled amps featured on the above link, but you can see them both by simply navigating the site....


there are other topologies designed, classA, le Mostre, has 8watts output and can run on 12volts car batteries for pure dc operation....here is the link:http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/fr/audio/monster.htm or this one:http://www.gmweb.btinternet.co.uk/index.htm

Are there any truth to this statement?  Are we going to hear differences between the Leach and the GC?

if you set them up using the same speakers, same gain, same volume level, same equalisation, same program material!!! i doubt it!!!!

[joan2]

forgive me kung medyo OT itong itatanong ko. i like to know if this is an a/v receiver amplifier section problem:

after a power failure there's some power fluctuation and the receiver stops working. the lights on the receiver were still working including the LCD except an "OVERLOAD" word scrolls across the LCD. each time you press a button "switch off power" will be displayed on the LCD. there's no sound whatsoever the receiver is crippled.

receiver was brought to a (stupid)repair shop and was diagnose with 3 damaged amplifier modules. the modules was ordered abroad which cost an arm and a leg but after replacing the supposed broken modules the receiver is still not working exactly as before.

could it be the amplifier section? or could it be the overload protection circuits? but why didn't it reset by itself? can the power fluctuation damaged the overload protection circuitry that easily? is the overload protection circuit easy to fix?

any help will be appreciated.

i am curious, was it playing when the power surge struck? the overload indication could mean several things, it could be a voltage offset at the output so that it won't play anymore, or power supply problem of sorts, the best thing to do is to bring it to the authorized service center for that product...

avr's are very complex, it has a microcomputer inside controlling various functions, monitoring your entire system, that it still has indicator lights going is a good chance that that microcomputer is still alive...

[Leiko]

kaya matutuloy lang ang shootout pag may maglalakas loob pagamit ng speakers hehehe.

we can start with those kits built and working fine...hope this pushes thru

[Leiko]

Hi,

I have one of those Low TIM Leach Amps here: http://www.geocities.com/jojod818/leach_amp/leach_low_tim.htm

I currently use this amp and is really a very good design. The sonics are excellent too.

JojoD

Is home demo an option?   so desperate to hear it!

[joan2]

ako din... mas gusto ko magpagawa na lang sa expert kaysa gawin ko ng sarili... if the price is right.

about amps sounding the same, i don't quite agree with the article cuz i have 5 amps and i do hear a difference.  even equal-powered amps have a difference in tonal balance.  the thing is... some amps will sound the same and some amps will sound different.  for instance, when playing vocals or guitar it may be hard to distinguish the sound of the luxman lv-105 from the marantz sr7300.  but play something with a double bass, and you will hear the difference in bass definition.  sony 333es and sansui a707 are bass-heavy with soft treble.  onkyo 819rs has sharp treble.  how did i compare?  with great risk & difficulty!!  i was able to switch back & forth between 2 amps because my dvd/cd player has 2 audio outputs.  i connected 2 amps to 1 speaker pair and switched between amps making sure that the speaker switch of one amp is on while the other is off.  dangerous isn't it??  don't try this at home folks.  its hard to resist when curiosity starts to itch.

akyat,
it is normal for you to hear differences, because each of those units have a unique character in terms of topology and construction....but do that under blind conditions, then maybe you will know differently, but this is not a big deal as far i am concerned....

[av_phile]

The theoies as applied in amplifier design should result in amplifers sounding the same across many vendors.  But because of design compromises in many commerical amps, among other things, sonic differences often result.  I have come accross a couple of amps in the past the don't sound the same at any volume level even if they have the same circuit topologies and power reserves.  What I heard was confirmed by an oscilliscope and a signal generator.  

One school of thought suggests that the difference begin to be audible once the threashold of clipping begins. That's because distortion is a form of sound coloration.  And different amps have differnet distrotion traits.

It's also possible that interchannel crosstalk is high in one amp courrtesy of some unbalanced grounding conditions that allow the left signal to leak into the other resulting in less stereophonic imaging.

Most of the difference I heard are in the extreme ends of the audio spectrum, where one has deeper bass or the other more pronounced cymbals.  Often the culprit is in the preamp stages where the tone control flat settings are not really flat.  Or some capacitor in the audio path that restricts frequency responses.  I think transistors also account for some sonic signatures, mosfests vs bipolars vs germaniums vs JFETs vs integrateds, etc..  Theoretically they are supposed to give the same bandwidth albeit under different ccircuit parameters. But I think some give high bandwidths that can go to 100khz which could allow the high harmonics of instruments to pass through, giving them certain sonic qualities that otheriwse would not be heard.

If the amps don't have the same power reserves, it's possible that you could hear differences during transient peaks where one starts to distort while the other doesn't.

Some high end gears advertise the use of high tolerance premium or NASA-grade electronic parts in their amps to impart better sonics.  Maybe thus works when the amps get abused or gets older so that a mediocre built amp with loser tolerances might degrade over time while the premium ones don't, hence you get some sonic differences later on.

It is also possible that using a recorded material that would not challenge the low and high sonic capabilities of an amp or its transient dynamics or with less stereo imprint to begin with could reuslt in identical sounding amps.  Especially in a blind A/B test.  Highly compressed pop music often could make different amps sound the same.  But using more demanding recorded materials could reveal differences.  

At any rate, while I would like to think all amps using tried and tested design pricniples should sound the same, it's often nice to now that difference can exist to justify upgrading.  he he    But among well-made hi end amps that are accurate, I think differences can be so minute as to be inaudible.

[ArnieSwarzie]

if you set them up using the same speakers, same gain, same volume level, same equalisation, same program material!!! i doubt it!!!!

You hit it right on target!

I remember reading something like this, a shootout of amplifiers including tube amplifiers. But they made sure they are on same loudness level and some other adjustments on each maybe as permitted by their respective tone controls probably. Then they commissioned select and seasoned audio personalities to identify which is which. All claims just returned to ground zero.

Most of the time, it is the pre-amplifier components (pre-amp and phone/tape/CD decoders) that forces the differences of amplifiers. I tried this with my own setup.

I have a high-end integrated which has selector to bypass pre-amp and connect straight to main amp. Being integrated, it sound the balance I like. I have a separate AVR which I dont like the sound balance in music. This AVR has pre-outs though. Out of curiosity, I fed the pre-outs of my AVR to the main input of my high end amp. What I got is the sound balance similar to the AVR amp sound balance that I dont like.

So it gave me the impression that the amp of my AVR and the high end is (almost) the same. The tonal balance that dont satisfy me is basically coming from the preamp of the AVR. And the tonal balance I like from my high-end is coming from its own pre-amp circuits. The amp of both is basically just that - reproduce faithfully what has been altered by respective pre-amps.

[akyatbundok]

i see... so this means much of the sonic signature actually comes from the preamp??  i can see how my integrateds can sound different, they all have preamps.  that's giving me something new to play with -- preamps!!  pero mga sir, does this mean that tweaking an amp is useless?  i thought replacing certain parts will improve it.

[av_phile]

i see... so this means much of the sonic signature actually comes from the preamp??  i can see how my integrateds can sound different, they all have preamps.  that's giving me something new to play with -- preamps!!  pero mga sir, does this mean that tweaking an amp is useless?  i thought replacing certain parts will improve it.

Many hi-end vendors like Theta actually use the same circuits or designs of some commercials mass-fi brands like Pioneer in their products.  They replace resistors and capcitors with better grade parts of closer tolerances.  Double the power transformers,  Repacked the whole thing in bullet-prrof chassis weighing twice.  Then selling them for 10 times the cost of a similarly desgined commercial gear.  

I think you can do likewise.  But if you plan to replace active devices like transistors, I would suggest, you get hold of the schematics and an eletronics handbook of transitors to see what transistors can safely replace what's in your amp.  Ofcourse you need to know the part numbers and the characteristics of  you existing transistors.  Better still, get Joan2 to do it.

[av_phile]

You hit it right on target!

I remember reading something like this, a shootout of amplifiers including tube amplifiers. But they made sure they are on same loudness level and some other adjustments on each maybe as permitted by their respective tone controls probably. Then they commissioned select and seasoned audio personalities to identify which is which. All claims just returned to ground zero.

Most of the time, it is the pre-amplifier components (pre-amp and phone/tape/CD decoders) that forces the differences of amplifiers. I tried this with my own setup.

I have a high-end integrated which has selector to bypass pre-amp and connect straight to main amp. Being integrated, it sound the balance I like. I have a separate AVR which I dont like the sound balance in music. This AVR has pre-outs though. Out of curiosity, I fed the pre-outs of my AVR to the main input of my high end amp. What I got is the sound balance similar to the AVR amp sound balance that I dont like.

So it gave me the impression that the amp of my AVR and the high end is (almost) the same. The tonal balance that dont satisfy me is basically coming from the preamp of the AVR. And the tonal balance I like from my high-end is coming from its own pre-amp circuits. The amp of both is basically just that - reproduce faithfully what has been altered by respective pre-amps.

I tend to agree.  My earlier experience with discerning differences in sound is with integrateds also. Theoretically, power amps that accurately amplify an input signal should sound the same for a given input volt and  output gain. But I think in real world conditions, subtle differences do exist. Whether they are audible or not is up to the listener.

[audiovoodo]

The theoies as applied in amplifier design should result in amplifers sounding the same across many vendors.  But because of design compromises in many commerical amps, among other things, sonic differences often result.  I have come accross a couple of amps in the past the don't sound the same at any volume level even if they have the same circuit topologies and power reserves.  What I heard was confirmed by an oscilliscope and a signal generator.  

One school of thought suggests that the difference begin to be audible once the threashold of clipping begins. That's because distortion is a form of sound coloration.  And different amps have differnet distrotion traits.

It's also possible that interchannel crosstalk is high in one amp courrtesy of some unbalanced grounding conditions that allow the left signal to leak into the other resulting in less stereophonic imaging.

Most of the difference I heard are in the extreme ends of the audio spectrum, where one has deeper bass or the other more pronounced cymbals.  Often the culprit is in the preamp stages where the tone control flat settings are not really flat.  Or some capacitor in the audio path that restricts frequency responses.  I think transistors also account for some sonic signatures, mosfests vs bipolars vs germaniums vs JFETs vs integrateds, etc..  Theoretically they are supposed to give the same bandwidth albeit under different ccircuit parameters. But I think some give high bandwidths that can go to 100khz which could allow the high harmonics of instruments to pass through, giving them certain sonic qualities that otheriwse would not be heard.

If the amps don't have the same power reserves, it's possible that you could hear differences during transient peaks where one starts to distort while the other doesn't.




At any rate, while I would like to think all amps using tried and tested design pricniples should sound the same, it's often nice to now that difference can exist to justify upgrading.  he he    But among well-made hi end amps that are accurate, I think differences can be so minute as to be inaudible.

I am sorry!

But if you think you can determine the sound of amp with an osciloscope and a signal generator, WOW

Music is not a simple sine wave at 20 HZ, that is what a scope and a signal generator can show! Music is a complete spectrum all at the same time but at different levels.

Frequency Extremes? AV-do you use an equalizer, then with an equalizer you can make every amp sound as good the LEACH? even a GAINCLONE Maybe you should consider buying 5 or 7 seven equalizers for your HT set-up and have your 200 watts/amp, that would really be simple for everyone.

You must really listen to your music LOOOOOUUUUDDDD!
It seem you can make your high powered amps clip all the time to be able to differentiate one from another.  I for one when I enjoy the music don't listen for this things.  In my critical listening times, I still don't play my music loud enough to regularly clip, and only to try to find the difference. If you do this then you are trying to make the amp operate over what it is required to do.  When you play your music louder than live, the nuances and the detail get harder to differentiate.

GO to a DISCO or LIVE Concert, are these the listening level you listen to audition audio stuff.  And this is a HT forum, do you listen to your HT with the wispers on screen beings shouts!!!!

Power reserve!!!!maybe you can get those boom boxes, with equalizer available in in ANSON or SM with 3000 watts peak music power, SOLVED!

[losi_phile]

The link to : "The Ongoing Debate about Amplifier "Sound"

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20020901.htm

[lance]

  do i heared jofkevski? its seems he is just around the corner. he he he

[john5479]

anyone here have an nec amp

[joe3rp]

I have been a lurker here and found this thread.  I usually just look at the buy and sell.  I am more active in Wirestate.

AV-PHILE, hi remember me, I still have the HAFLER AMPS for sale! I guess you lost interest in these fine quality high powered mosfet amps. At a price close to a DIY gainclone.

In as much as we are both from UP, I think I agree with VOODO's thinking. (Voodo..taga saan ka ba?)

I have gone past the stage of high power amps.  see my for sale list, I had a ROTEL AV pre-amp driving HAFLER XL280 bridged  (400+ into 4 ohms) x 3, then 2 HAFLER DH220 for the rear, 400 watts servo sub driving Magneplanars and ENERGY speakers. It was loud and sparkling clean.....but...kulang

I now have a triodes hooked up to the ROTEL (set up as stereo but with PHANTOM MODE), for some reason I enjoy the sound better and even the image is fantastic. BTW I have changed speakers to KLIPSCH.

I am a technical person (by education and profession) and have been a DIY since the Audio Amateur Mags, Musical Concepts, Popular Electronics, Alexan and Formula kits.  It just seem I enjoy my set-up nowadays better.  I learned that to rely purely on specs, reviews and scientific data for audio purchase is not that important or even dangerous.

I deduced from your post, that the best audio system would be a professional grade amp and equalizer.  To even make it closer to your "ideal" amp a professional CARVER amp...a professional equalizer with adjustment across the audio band, the more the adjustment the better. And the professional CARVER amp with a small class A base amplifier and the "DIGITAL TYPE" support amp, an amp that is almost impossible to clip, flat frequency response beyond hearing...and maybe an active crossover to even have more control of the speakers. Just a thought, BOB CARVER also makes tube amps and pre-amps. Is it only a marketing gimmick or maybe a solid state amp with all its fantastic specs, still does not sound "LIVE".

As to your claim about a scope and signal generator, I have both (scope and generator) and I do not think what you claim is possible for normal listening.  Even a spectrum analyzer could not do that.

And if you think of it, if the SCOPE is that magical tool, why doesn't TEKTRONIX, Hewlett Packard, HITACHI, DUMONT, and other instrument makers make the best sounding Amplifiers?  I would think making an amp or pre-amp would be easier and a lot cheaper to make.  And the market would definitely be larger.  

Audio is a synergy of all the parts of the system, I have heard a fantastic system that of HYPERION's (someone we totally respect in wiredstate) in which he would remove a lowly KAMAGONG amplifier STAND and instantly this seemingly un-scientific procedure would affect the total musical presentation (in this case worse). He would replace his highly preferred interconnects with another "botique interconnect" and this would just totally dissolve the image.

So to those newbies, do not take his view in to get the biggest amp you can afford, it is not the path to audio Nirvana.  

Just as a DIY amp, though it may be of lesser "quality", just because it is your DIY! That makes it sound 100 times better.

As one of the pilars of Wiredstate - Vintage Dog Says

"It is in the mind"

I might add, please put it in your mind that you do not need 200 watts to have a good amp, you need a system with synergy and every part is important.

[av_phile]

The link to : "The Ongoing Debate about Amplifier "Sound"

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20020901.htm

I think I've come across this article sometime in the past.  It just bolstered my suspicion then that an accurate amplifer should not alter the input signal in anyway.  Thus, similarly accurate amps should identical, given the same input and speakers.  I think it was these same people in another article who sounded the observation that while the amos may sound identical, it is when they start to distort that accounts for any audible differenmce.  

[av_phile]

Hi Joe3rp,

I have not forgotten.  Glad to hear from you and that your Hafflers are still available.  I have not upgraded my Onkyo since we last talked.

Firstly let me disabuse your mind that I prefer professional gears.  I don't.  That's why I was having second thoughts about the Hafler which is a professional brand if not mistaken.   And I don't even use an equalizer, excceot for the subs which is hardly used and would eventually go away when I upgrade the subs  My Rotel pre/pro don't even have tone controls

If you reread my posts and the history behind them, I said distortions in solid state anps these days are very low and basically, using high power amps, you would never reach clipping distortions anywhere below half the volume mark even for transient peaks.  That was the gist of idea.  So for those hwo like their music loud and would like to reproduce the 120db + SPLs of live orchestra at the front row of the CCP in their room, then I would suggest a very powerful amp.  That statement was triggered by the previous discussions on whether the sound of amps should be compared to live sounds.  And whether one needs a 200 watt amp or a 1000 watt amp or a 3-watt amp, that's for him to decide and my suggestion was prompted by a hypothetical need to reproduce real-life live music SPLs.    Every path to sonic nirvana is a personal one and different. So if you like your music at reasoanble listening levels like I do as well,  then a muscled amp is not necesary.  And you can  go ahead and get whatever gear you fanccy Tubes or SS.  So what's the fuss about.

And I don't recall talking a lot about oscilliscopes and the like.  In relation to the issue whether amps sound the same or not,  I just reacted with a persnal experience that I heard a difference in the past between two amps and it was confirmed by the difference in the oscillisope trace I used on that amp.  I am neither interested in oscilliscopes and signal tracers nor do i own any.

With the issue of technical data or specs accompanying an amp or any gear for that matter, I cannot discount them.  An honest technical spec is just that but it can tell at first glance how the amp will perform. That's the frist thing I look for. The ears are the judge.   And like I said, i wouldn't even consider auditioning a gear if the spec sheet is not to my liking.  

I have no contention with you that the playback of music is a synergy of many parts, the whole being beter the sum of them.  And the appreciation of it is an art. And a personal one.   But what makes those gears work is  more an exact science and engineering.  Many would opine that Hi-Fi doesn't figure in their appreciation of what they hear from their gears so long as it satisfies them. No one can debate that.  Personally, I'm too much a believer of Hi-Fi and the science behind it  to forget about specs.  And the pursuit of hi-fi remains in my judgement the only reason for my hobby.

My advices are just suggestions based on what I know and my opinions are just that, opinions.   People in this forum can do further researches and are free to take them or not.  I never claimed to have a monopoly of the right insights, experience  or technical knowledge and would promptly acknowledge a correction if proven wrong as I had many times in the past.  But I would never pressume to tell anyone not to take  this or that guy's advice as if I had the better grasp of what he needs.

[akyatbundok]

sir joe3rp, you mean to say we should not be looking for high powered amps with low distortion ?  if not 200w then how many watts?  what should we look for as an alternative ?  i'm always open to tubes or ss as long as i can afford it .  i listen at moderate levels most of the time so i guess i dont usually need high power, but once in a while i like to listen to rock music at very loud volume.  its that 5% of the time that i want to rock that made me upgrade my speakers because i could never enjoy that 5%, though 95% of the time i loved the sound.

[ArnieSwarzie]

sir joe3rp, you mean to say we should not be looking for high powered amps with low distortion ?  what should we look for as an alternative ?  i listen at moderate levels most of the time so i guess i dont usually need high power, but once in a while i like to listen to rock music at very loud volume.  its that 5% of the time that i want to rock that made me upgrade my speakers because i could never enjoy that 5%, though 95% of the time i loved the sound.

In your case, and for some people case with similar listening habits, you do. Your type of music also dictate you must. For some, it is not necessary. This all boils down to what you need and up to what extent it will be used. and of course, up to how deep your hand can pull from your pocket;

neither high-powered nor low-powered is the path to audio nirvana. In the end, you might conclude that audio nirvana is just in the mind, and not existent at all. and audio nirvana (its meaning) is another subjective animal to debate upon. and all those decent amplifiers' differences are lot of adoos about nothing.

[joe3rp]

sir joe3rp, you mean to say we should not be looking for high powered amps with low distortion ?  what should we look for as an alternative ?  i listen at moderate levels most of the time so i guess i dont usually need high power, but once in a while i like to listen to rock music at very loud volume.  its that 5% of the time that i want to rock that made me upgrade my speakers because i could never enjoy that 5%, though 95% of the time i loved the sound.

Bossing, please don't sir me, from the number of post you are a veteran.

Anyway for me if I am in the buying/audition stage, this is the best feeling and it should be.  Now you have the power and confidence to walk in an audio store or a "for sale equipment". Enjoy this moment!

I assume you currently have your own system and have also been listening to systems that you admire or  heve been listening to live music.  Assemble a set of CD's that you have to bring when you audition, this way you are familiar with the music, recording and it is the mix of music that you want.  If the salesman refuses to put your cd/music in the system that you are interested in...it is his loss...you are a customer remember and a buying customer.  You can actually tell him that... the fact you are there you are ready to buy or if he wants you can walk away and buy elsewhere.

You usually approach him with some pre-conceived amp, but it is usually the budget that will be the constrain. Be open when he suggests an amp and then listen.  The problem now is the speakers and the other equipment, here is when your imagination and little know how comes in.  How are these other equipment similar to my set-up. BTW what are your other equipment, speakers? Maybe you should start at a store or a friends house with the same speaker make and i possible same model.  Then play your CDs...if it sounds better...do you think it is the amp?...if not...maybe your system is great as is!

As for the best type audition, ask if you could bring it home or if not bring your speaker and cd player to the place you are buying it, this is a  hard but it will be the closest to testing the synergy of the system.

In other words with your music and possibly your speaker in hand, connect to amps without the need for knowing what wattage...some guys in WIREDSTATE use low wattage TRIODE amps with JBL, Sonus Fabers or other speaker which other reviewers would not dare match...but they are in their own audio nirvana.

I know it is hard...but fun...learn not to get pressured when auditioning...this is not like a job interview or the dentist chair

[ArnieSwarzie]

anyone here have an nec amp

Whats special about a NEC amp?