Topic: What Is Your Experience with Cables?

[yukon]

amen to that audioslave... you'll see the difference only when you use a "big display " gear.  Same goes with audio, you'll only (or is it really) hear the difference when you're using a decent unit. read: magandang uri na audio unit.

I don't want to start a word war so nasa sa inyo na rin kung ano ang "magandang unit". heheh I rest my case attorney.

[Audioboy]

amen to that audioslave... you'll see the difference only when you use a "big display " gear.  Same goes with audio, you'll only (or is it really) hear the difference when you're using a decent unit. read: magandang uri na audio unit.

I don't want to start a word war so nasa sa inyo na rin kung ano ang "magandang unit". heheh I rest my case attorney.

dont rest on your case pre. bawal tutulog tulog dito. hehehe. 

napalmdog,

14" monitor or otherwise, get a 75ohm compliant coax cable.

[iceman90a]

pag kasing laki ng display ni yukon ang gamit mo dapat maganda yung cable

di ka ba mag iimbita Bai?

[Audioboy]

pag kasing laki ng display ni yukon ang gamit mo dapat maganda yung cable

di ka ba mag iimbita Bai?

di kailangan ng cable sa monitor yung kay yukon pre. project lang ng project. wireless kung baga!

[Superman]

juls, pre sent you a PM...thanks!

[napalmdog]

thanks for the replies! 

[Jude]

Just wondering, in the medical field kasi, and pharmacology in particular, much of the previously established beliefs or theories that are based on either what we call "anecdotal evidence" (you know somebody who got well from taking a drug) or "expert opinions" (the recognized expert on a disease says that this drug is the best treatment) are one by one being debunked by what is recognized as the best way to prove a drug's efficacy - and that's through a randomized controlled trial (RCT).  I noticed kasi that the audiophile world seemingly depends a lot on anecdotal evidence and expert opinions, so do you know if there have been any randomized controlled trials done to assess audio equipment? Cables in particular seem to be the field that owuld most benefit from this.

In my experience naman, going from composite to component really makes a huge difference, for one thing, the colors look at least 20% more vivid using a component connection. And in connecting a subwoofer, a fatter coaxial cable really produced better bass compared to a thinner one.

[av_phile1]

Randomized controlled testing is often referred to in the audio hobby as bias-controlled Double-Blind Test or DBT.  It's a widely accepted scientific process for statistically evaluating if there are differences between gears such as amps cables and players from a set of population samples.  No other kind of comparative testing will yield authoritative results.

DBTs have time and again proved there are no sonic differences among well-engineered amps that are neutral and transparent, as well as among cables.  Because of this, their exponents often say the sound quality is not a reason for choosing one amp over another.  OTher reasons are more relevant, like build quality, power, warranty, looks, etc.  One DBT test mentioned at audioholics showed the respondents couldn't correectly idendityf/distinguish between a $300 reciever and a $10,000 amp.  Much less with cables.

In another infamous test, respondents gave various praises for  cables identified with branded exotic cables and then thumbed-down one generic cable.  When all the while the testers never changed cables retaining only a generic hardware cable all throughout the test.    That test seemed to prove the psychological power of suggestion that says one's perceptions are colored by price, brand and peer affinity.

But ofcource, there are anecdotal or experiental tales of personal perceptions that one amp, player or cable sounds better than another.  That's often the crux of much debate.  On the one side you have the objectivist claiming DBT results.  The other side is the subjectivist claiming personal perceptions.  Which camp you're in, that's all up to you.  This hobby has enough room for both. 

[KEN]

Just want to share this...

I'm using QED Qunex2 both on my CPD->Receiver and Receiver preout-> 2x power amps (vertical biamp) before and since I'm not happy with the sound I purchased QED Qunex 4S(hoping the sound would change to my liking).

But wherever I connect the S4 either to CDP or Receiver ...there's a always a significant change sa tunog, nagiging mabilog ang tunog but it lessen the details compare to Qunex2. I even combine Qunex2 and S4 using Qunex2 for the High and S4 for Low and vice versa(receiver->power amp) pero naging mas magulo ang tunog (siguro dahil I'm only using Y connector to split R and L ng receiver going to 2 power amps)...and I regretted buying the S4 which cost twice as much as the Qunex2...

Last moth i got the opportunity to get a dedicated preamp with 2 output...and I did the same experiment of changing/combining the interconnect and guest what ....I end up using the S4 on my CDP->Preamp and the Qunex2 on preamp ->2 power amps. A big improvement  from my previous setup (bilog was there and details are clear) but I guest its mainly due to the dedicated preamp...But  there was really a big difference between using the two interconnects (IMHO) and honestly  I never expected it to be that big
until the day I experienced it from my setup...

cheers

[jerix]

Got a bigger bass with an ordinary 12 g electric wire -- 

[aHobbit]

Just want to share this...

I'm using QED Qunex2 both on my CPD->Receiver and Receiver preout-> 2x power amps (vertical biamp) before and since I'm not happy with the sound I purchased QED Qunex 4S(hoping the sound would change to my liking).

But wherever I connect the S4 either to CDP or Receiver ...there's a always a significant change sa tunog, nagiging mabilog ang tunog but it lessen the details compare to Qunex2. I even combine Qunex2 and S4 using Qunex2 for the High and S4 for Low and vice versa(receiver->power amp) pero naging mas magulo ang tunog (siguro dahil I'm only using Y connector to split R and L ng receiver going to 2 power amps)...and I regretted buying the S4 which cost twice as much as the Qunex2...

Last moth i got the opportunity to get a dedicated preamp with 2 output...and I did the same experiment of changing/combining the interconnect and guest what ....I end up using the S4 on my CDP->Preamp and the Qunex2 on preamp ->2 power amps. A big improvement  from my previous setup (bilog was there and details are clear) but I guest its mainly due to the dedicated preamp...But  there was really a big difference between using the two interconnects (IMHO) and honestly  I never expected it to be that big
until the day I experienced it from my setup...

cheers

Hi Ken,

Your experience with the 2 interconnects strenghten what others in the internet said. Different cables (due to their different manufacturing and design techniques) have differring electrical characteristics (the RLC characteristics). And this electrical characteristics do interact with the system connected to its end to produce unpredictable consequences that can only be verified by listening. In your case - interacts with amps and preamps and sources (CDP).

Some quarters already said that even your cable is in itself an equalizer (as in graphic equalizers) - that will attenuate/tune frequencies depending on the overall RLC characteristics of your cable - this is why you hear experimenters saying bass is louder, mid becomes fuller but bass sucks, of high becomes smooth but etc etc. They are basically an equalizing effect of the RLC characteristics of the cable interacting with your systems.

And it is really hard telling if a cable is good for your system (meaning it will improve performance) or will just suck it out (for the bad of it). And here, cost has nothing to indicate if the said cable is good or not for your setup - even though you may notice their good, solid and sometimes flashy construction. This is why I already understood a section of audiophile, which before I called nuts, when they just use their ears to judge gears including cable. To me, this listening technique is far better than just making a purchase of more expensive cable just because they have the notion that price comes with sound performance improvement (which is in fact has no correlation at all). And as I heard a lot of others in the hobby, as I experience, this is true even with the rest of your gears - upgrading to pricier gears is not necessarily an upgrade to better sonic performance.

The last part of your report, looks like something to do with your receiver-amp matching, which might be th culprit in an unsatisfactory sound you heard. And it might be your pre-amp is better matched with the amp than the receivers pre-out. And it is also probable the cable has little or nothing to do with it.

Lastly, some reasonable audio outfit do evaluate cable, and I think they are kind of competent, in that they make use of ordinary zip cords as reference to evaluate some enterprising cable comapnies.

[rear_naked_choke]

How long is too long for a Component Input video cable? (before the signal starts to degrade?), as I need to connect my DVD player to a projector about 6 meters away.  I am using Monster cables.

Thanks!

[rascal101]

At the start, I just used the standard two wire cable connected to my speakers. After doing some research I discovered the UBYTE cable from TNT audio. Afterwhich, I bought RG58 wires in Quiapo and configured it for UBYTE. Not content on what I was hearing I made various cable configurations and tested them using an LCR meter. Based on these tests, I found out that the UBYTE configuration had very good R, L and C qualities.

Since thicker RG58 wire was better than the thinner coax cable (used as ripple testing in the office) in terms of R, L and C I decided to visit our Home Cable to buy RG59 cables (nakita ko kasi maganda iyung ginagamit nila). Since ayaw nila magbenta hiningi ko na lang iyung mga used cables nila. To my surprise pumayag sila!

Since then, I have stuck with the RG59 cables (configured as UBYTE) from Home Cable ... I have also donated my original RG58 UBYTE cable ...

[ATJr.]

i never used branded speaker cables, just plain old 14gage flatwire!

My Aiwa, mini compo used gage22 wires to connect the speakers, about a meter and ahalf long! and i tell you the bass is really chest pounding, clean and clear! i never entertained any idea of changing it, why? cause i am satistfied with it!

the problem with cables and interconnects is that there are many in this hobby who have little or no knowledge in physics,  thus they are the ones that are easy to be convinced!

[oweidah]

the problem with cables and interconnects is that there are many in this hobby who have little or no knowledge in physics, thus they are the ones that are easy to be convinced!

gud day sir 2ny..with due respect sir, sa hobby po na eto hindi naman p0 lahat eh engineers na may ample background sa physics.(no offense meant to the engineers ha) Kailangan pa ba mag-review ng physics para makumbinsi ang sarili na hindi dapat gumamit ng branded o diy cables/interconnects eh sa totoo lang p0 ang tenga ko lang ang makikinig at ang bulsa ko ang masasaktan kung gumastos ng kaunti - 7-10% my total system cost, para sa ikaliligaya ko at hindi ng kung sino man. ganoon din po sa mga gumagamit ng generic o simple flatwire lampcords gauge22 to 12 basta sila po ay kontento, happy ako para sa kanila. Sana nga eh ganoon din p0 ako para hindi na gumastos, kaya lang huwag na p0 sana kailanganin mag-aral pa ng physics.....  *to answer the topic- i've tried using generic and branded now i am happy with my current choice of cables and interconnects. Nobody influenced my decision but my ears and wallet........peace

p.s. pls correct me if i am wrong, gaya ng cables at interconnects, ganoon din ba p0 sa vacuum tubes? may mga choices of different brands na may kanya-kanyang sonic qualities. different brands of the same tube ex. el34  ng sylvanna national sovtek etc pero may kanya-kanyang preferences ang mga audiophiles but i havent heard anybody call them audiofools for buying NOS tubes.... just my mamera

[bumblebee]

gud day sir 2ny..with due respect sir, sa hobby po na eto hindi naman p0 lahat eh engineers na may ample background sa physics.(no offense meant to the engineers ha) Kailangan pa ba mag-review ng physics para makumbinsi ang sarili na hindi dapat gumamit ng branded o diy cables/interconnects eh sa totoo lang p0 ang tenga ko lang ang makikinig at ang bulsa ko ang masasaktan kung gumastos ng kaunti - 7-10% my total system cost, para sa ikaliligaya ko at hindi ng kung sino man. ganoon din po sa mga gumagamit ng generic o simple flatwire lampcords gauge22 to 12 basta sila po ay kontento, happy ako para sa kanila. Sana nga eh ganoon din p0 ako para hindi na gumastos, kaya lang huwag na p0 sana kailanganin mag-aral pa ng physics.....  peace

p.s. pls correct me if i am wrong, gaya ng cables at interconnects, ganoon din ba p0 sa vacuum tubes? may mga choices of different brands na may kanya-kanyang sonic qualities. different brands of the same tube ex. el34  ng sylvanna national sovtek etc pero may kanya-kanyang preferences ang mga audiophiles but i havent heard anybody call them audiofools for buying NOS tubes.... just my mamera

Hi awadeh al.

I think Sir 2ny is referring to the really exotic cables w/c often defy the laws of physics w/ their claims. The ears will decide, yes, but, let us also be informed.

[oweidah]

bumblebee- oh ok, agree.....

[rascal101]

Kung hindi ka makontento sa naririnig mo palagay ko hindi kable iyon. Hindi naman ko pong sinasabi na masama bumili ng mamahaling kable ... kaya lang ... sayang kasi. Sa aking experience mas mabuti gumastos ng husto sa amplifier o di kaya speakers. Kung aabot na sa Php 500 ang gastos sa speaker cables aba ... kailangan na sigurong mag isip isip. Tama ba na gumastos ako ng mahigit Php 500 sa kable. Kung ikasasaya ko at kung mayroon akong extra cash eh di ok. Kaya lang ... puwede mo namang itaas kasi iyung volume ng amplifier mo ... eh di ganun din.

Ang tanong saan ka lulugar. Gagastos ba (para masaya at pari masatisfy ang sarili mo) o konting sakripisyo (magtaas ng volume).

[oweidah]

Sa aking experience mas mabuti gumastos ng husto sa amplifier o di kaya speakers.

Kaya lang ... puwede mo namang itaas kasi iyung volume ng amplifier mo ... eh di ganun din.

gud noon sir rascal101... 1) Agree po ako dapat sa audio o HT eh mas pag-ukulan ng attention ang magkaroon ng magandang amplifier, speaker at source. kaya p0 maximum 7-10% ng total system cost ang pansariling alituntunin ko sa paggastos sa i.c at speaker cables.

paki enlighten mo p0 ako, paano p0 ba, pag nilakasan ko ang volume eh gaganda p0 ba ang tunog?
tnx 

[gutchy]

sir rascal aside from  from power loss due to resistance, you need to consider also the interference that may alter the frequency travelling through that cable either conductive or radiated kya ung ibang wire my teflon tubing.. capacitve and inductive reactance must also be consider, for cable wires may act as a passive filter due to the effect of this reactances there are different ways to minimize this which i think CAT 5 and U-bytes are doing.. and copper may oxidate if not properly coated kya may mga OFC wires..

kaya cguro may mahal at murang cable..

Ideal cable must be input = output but due to many factors affecting while traveling kya nagbabago ung tunog.. So for me Investing on a good cable must also be consider..

To the gurus out there please correct me if I'm wrong newbie lng po ako sa hobby na toh..
and I am thankful if I could learn more from you..

sir rascal, ikaw ung nagturo skin nyan..hehe pati nga skin effect pinaliwanag mo skin..
post mo nmn pics nung simulation mo dun sa different wires including the graph.. U-bytes  ung nag-champion dba against CAT 5 and other cables..

- gutchy

[rascal101]

Sir Awadeh Al,

Iyung speaker cables base sa mga testing na ginawa ko nagkakatalo lang sa DC resistance at parallel capacitance (check mo iyung specs ng mga mamahaling cable). Halos pare parehas ang series inductance (nasa 1 or 2uH). Iyung DC resistance - volume ang katapat. Iyung capacitance (kung mataas) oscillation ang katapat - LC tank filter kasi ang kinalalabasan. Eh di saan ka pa?

Cheers,

Rascal101

[rascal101]

Sir Gutchy,

Tama ka. Kung may pera ka rin lang i insulate mo ng teflon iyung cable mo. Pagkatapos ng hangin ang may  pinakamababang dielectric constant (ability to store electrons as compared to air) ay teflon. Kaya nga iyung mga coax nababalutan ng thin copper foil na outer conductor para dun dumaan iyung noise (papuntang ground) at di pumasok sa main conductor. Iyung magagandang cable may teflon na insulator between iyung main conductor at outer conductor para minimal iyung capacitance. Kapag mataas kasi iyung capacitance mo tiyak dadaan sa insulator papuntang main conductor mo ang noise. Check niyo iyung specs ng cable kung teflon ba ang ginagamit.

Cheers,

Rascal101

[gutchy]

Thanks sir rascal may na-gain knowledge n2mn ako syo.. repeat ko lng.. and please clarify kung tama nga..

In a coax, so the insulator which is the coating of both wires may act as a dielectric between them and the noise will use this to pass from one wire to another specially kung mataas ung capacitace depende sa material  thus, coating it with a teflon having the lowest dielectric material in a solid form will minimize capacitance between this two parallel wires as a result minimal din ung transfer ng noise..

hmm.. sounds good to me.. pero very expensive kc ung mga IC and speaker cable na coated ng Teflon.. kya DIY na lng.. san b nka2bili ng teflon tube?

would like to try this one:

http://www.audiotweaks.com/diy2/guus_interlink/page01.htm

cheers!

- gutchy

[oweidah]

sir rascal101, tnx sa explanation mo. Sa totoo p0 hindi ko maintindihan o maka-relate sa more technical stuff and specifications, i'd rather stick to the "audition, audition, audition" and let my ears be the judge. cheers on a rainy day!

[aHobbit]

Sir Gutchy,

Tama ka. Kung may pera ka rin lang i insulate mo ng teflon iyung cable mo. Pagkatapos ng hangin ang may  pinakamababang dielectric constant (ability to store electrons as compared to air) ay teflon. Kaya nga iyung mga coax nababalutan ng thin copper foil na outer conductor para dun dumaan iyung noise (papuntang ground) at di pumasok sa main conductor. Iyung magagandang cable may teflon na insulator between iyung main conductor at outer conductor para minimal iyung capacitance. Kapag mataas kasi iyung capacitance mo tiyak dadaan sa insulator papuntang main conductor mo ang noise. Check niyo iyung specs ng cable kung teflon ba ang ginagamit.

Cheers,

Rascal101

I will try to retrieve a file and post it here. No need of teflon, just air, and a shoe lace to make your interconnects!     

After looking at the innards of gaincards (hanging loosewire pair, not twisted, from point to point) - and some audiophile doing wiring of their speakers (loose wire pairs) - and lately the shoe lace inteconnects (that made use of coax internal plastic to remove dielectric effect on the wires), creativity is much more beneficial and cheap.

[ATJr.]

all these loose talks about skin effect, inductance, resistance, capacitance, etc,  etc. have nothing to do with your cables even if they are about 10meters long!

the speaker voice coils are made up from a gage 30 or 28 magnet wire! so why then does your cable need to be gage 11? go figure that out!

[ATJr.]

btw, if you are looking for teflon insulated coax cables, you can get them from computer monitor cables, they come in three colors, red, blue, and grey!

[mojako]

2ny,
san nakakabili nyan? yung insulation na yun, yun yung foam na nakabalot sa wire diba?

[ATJr.]

these coax cables are from computer monitor cables, the vga cables you can buy but you have to strip it to get the coax cables, there are some cables available at lowhmans' of tipidpc, near sm centerpoint,

[mojako]

2ny,
thanks for the info.. parang belden 89259 ba yan? FEP foam insulation?