Topic: Mundorf Capacitors

[butchoy8701]

I'm planning to upgrade my Cayin A-50T capacitors to mundorf.  I was wondering if the type of material (silver/gold) used in the mundorf capacitor would matter a lot.  Is it more practical to use a lower end mundorf (supreme) and get the caps with the highest capacitance (microfarad) to get more power trannies? 

In computers...bigger RAM is better than faster RAM. 

Best regards,

Butchoy

[JojoD818]

Hi,

Getting the highest capacitance cap is not the way to go. The value of the cap used is there for a purpose, putting a cap with too much capacitance can do more harm than good (sonically speaking).

May I suggest that you get the same capacitance rating, same or higher working voltage rating (as long as it fits your amp).

Cheers

[Le_Stat]

My A70t has silver/gold.  If I am not mistaken, they just replaced the old caps with Mundorf of the same spec but physically bigger. 

Sound is definitely heaven !

[butchoy8701]

Thanks for the info JojoD818...

Le_Stat,

   What tube are you using on your A70t? Perhaps i might upgrade to that unit also in the future.

[lithium_deuteride]

Hindi practical yung Mundorf silver/gold for the A50T because the cost of the upgrade is more than half the price of the amp itself.  Had mine upgraded with Mundorf Supremes just for the hell of it. There really wasn't anything wrong with the sound of the stock A50T.

You'll be impressed by the physical size of the Supremes versus the stock Realcaps but initially less impressed with the sound improvement. They say it'll take 200 hours to break-in the Mundorfs and I'm only at 10% of that so I can't say for sure if the upgrade was worth it. I'm going purely on reputation here. 

[AudioAmplified]

Patience my friend.  The sound of Mundorf will deteriorate from hours 10 onwards and will start improving after 150 hours until it reaches its full potential after 200 hours.  I know its a true test of patience but so far we only got good feedback from our clients.  Havent had one client who regret their upgrades yet - only those who wish the break-in could be faster.

You are correct that the price to upgrade ratio for silver/gold is kinda stiff for the A-50T.  Usually we recommend using Supreme which is already a very good product in itself; or we recommend a combination of Supreme and Silver/Gold.  Silver/Gold on the highly important signal path and Supremes for the rest. In fact you can even use and Silver/Gold and Zn for the rest combo too.

Le Stat has an A-70T so using silver/gold for his amp does make sense. 

[lithium_deuteride]

Hehe, don't worry Tyrone, I'm a patient man.  And good things come to those who wait.   

[Le_Stat]

Le_Stat,

   What tube are you using on your A70t? Perhaps i might upgrade to that unit also in the future.

NOS Tungsol USA 6550, Matsucrapa 5ar4, RCA Cleartop 12au7, RCA triple mica blackplate 5751 / or Matsucrapa 12ax7.

Prices of my tubes alone in the market is already way above my amp.   And yes, the Mundorf Silver/Gold is very much worth it. 

[AudioAmplified]

BAD Le Stat BAD Le Stat.

TUKSO sa ibang tao hahaha.   

[Le_Stat]

BAD Le Stat BAD Le Stat.

TUKSO sa ibang tao hahaha.  

ganon? hehehe. 

Le_Stat,

   What tube are you using on your A70t? Perhaps i might upgrade to that unit also in the future.

When you buy your A70t, get the KT88 EH stock tubes.  They have good reviews for KT88 new production tubes.  Ask Noel to place 12au7 cleartops and 12ax7 matsucrapa.  I think they still have stock of these tubes.  I'm not sure kung meron pa si Noel ng spare na Mullard 5ar4, but I saw amped selling his in buyandsell section of HT for 3,500.

[butchoy8701]

Just to share with you guys the article of AV front line that i've just read regarding mundorf capacitors...I've been reading a lot before i make an upgrade.

****************************************************************************************

Mundorf/Supreme Gold/Silver
This top of the line Mundorf turns out to be somewhat of a disappointment. It is very expensive because “the metallization of the capacitor foil for the MCap Supreme Silver/Gold consists of 99.99% pure silver, to which 1% high purity gold is added. Gold alters the crystalline structure of the silver and maximizes its electrical conductivity.”
All virtues of the M-cap Supreme remains in Gold/Silver, with everything better: better resolution, better dynamics, better musicality, better soundstage, etc. Unfortunately, it does not sound at par with its cheaper brother, the Silver/Oil. Consequently, it fails to make to class C although it is the leader of the group.


Mundorf Supreme Silver/Oil
Per the manufacturer, “the Supreme Silver/Oil is and oil impregnated metallized polypropylene dielectric capacitor, with induction-free winding technology. High purity silver is used for the capacitor coating, and the winding is impregnated with a special oil developed in an exhaustive series of experiments and listening tests. Both of these features contribute to an even fuller and smoother richness and diversity.” “This capacitor’s ability to bring out the finest nuances and the most subtle distinctions make the music sound more alive and juicy, yet without unnatural emphasis of any individual effects.”
This is an excellent capacitor with very liquid sound and world-class soundstage. Although it is not the most expensive in the Mundorf product line, it is the best sounding cap from this German company. It makes otherwise admirable M-cap Supreme and Supreme silver/gold comparably under-achieved. If the manufacturer’s
statement is true: “This is also the first time that the benefits of oil-impregnated capacitor design have been successfully combined with the well-known long-term stability of metallised paper and internal series wiring for induction-free performance”, I’m sure other hi-end equipment makers will give their business to Mundorf from the (unfortunately) unreliable Jensen.

******************************************************************************************

Hmmm...If this is true, then Silver/Oil would be a better option and much cheaper...

Just my 2 cents..

[AudioAmplified]

That article had a lot of people questioning the Silver/Gold.  However, there are also contradicting reviews that rates the silver/gold 11 out of 10.  http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html 

Our answer would be it really depends on the application and which type of music you like.  Changing caps allows you to tailor fit the amp to your liking, that is why Mundorf have different caps for each applicaton and no where did Mundorf say that one is better than the other simply because preferences differ. 

We did an A/B with some customers and majority liked the silver/gold against the silver oil but then again its their ears.  Both caps have their strengths and weaknesses based on application and preference. If you like the silver/oil, by all means it is a very solid capacitor in itself. 

[alexg]

In my experience, you cannot go wrong with Mundorf caps.

I put one (Mcap) on my TTL to SPDIF circuit as a DC blocker, and my CDP sounds better.

I replaced my output capacitor on my tube stage on my DAC with a Mundorf ZN with a film bypass and the improvement is night and day!

This weekend I will be opening my HT speakers to look at the crossover cap values and replaced them with Mundorf.

Even with the low end Mundorfs (Mcap, Supreme and ZN), Mundorf already deliver good sonics, what more if you use the silver/oil or the silver/gold!

[old_age]

for me, Mundorf Supreme is my best buy for 2006.  replaced all the auricaps in my monoblocks and preamp.  Liquid sounding with the finest details.  It's time to enjoy the music.

[butchoy8701]

This week, I finally decided to have my A50-T and CDT-15A upgraded to mundorf supreme caps...Whoa!! i was so surprised with the size compared to the stock caps and sure delivers a lot of juice to my Leisure 2SE.  I immediately noticed wider soundstage, improved bass...considering it has not fully broken in..I expect the SQ will deteriorate after 10 hours and will reach its peak at 200 hrs...

Thanks Tyrone for your help...Talagang you can never go wrong with Mundorf  

[ATJr.]

The sound of Mundorf will deteriorate from hours 10 onwards and will start improving after 150 hours until it reaches its full potential after 200 hours.  I know its a true test of patience but so far we only got good feedback from our clients.  Havent had one client who regret their upgrades yet - only those who wish the break-in could be faster.

why deteriorate? the oil leaks? what actually happens to the cap? why 10 hours and not 20? then why does it improve from after 150hours to 200 hours....

what are you breaking in? are there moving parts inside those caps?

[AudioAmplified]

Sir the 10-150 hour is a general guideline.  Actually there are no moving parts to break in.  Instead you are breaking in the electrical charge direction of the molecules in the wires of the capacitor (very similar in breaking in am amplifier which also has no moving parts).  After current moves along the wires the charges tend to move to a certain direction until they settle down and from expirience those are the general number of hours given by mundorf.

I know i know it is hard to imagine and believe.  I for one at first didnt believe that caps or more so wires and cables improve through break-in but they do. 

Fellow mundorf owners can you help me on this question with your testimonials pls.

[ATJr.]

don't get me wrong, i am of the opinion that Mundorf is a good cap, it is just that when you hype your product like that, it makes me think....

Mundorf caps can stand on its own even without your saying those statements which is really hard to prove..

i believe what the thread starter was asking about the silver and the gold, are they markings on the cap body and the caps themselves are made from aluminum foil and films instead of matalised films that is why the big size?

are they polypropylenes or teflons? as you know film cap heirarchy is like this, teflon, polycarbonate, and polypropylene,

how are mundorfs compared to auricaps, or wondercaps in terms of DA, dielectric absorption, or DF, dissipation factor?

[Adam Warlock]

I also believe there is a break in period in cables and caps. When I first use the mundorf spkr. wire. Sound was outstanding not that impress, its a little grainy.
My normal listening level is 9 but with this spkr wire its 11, quite a let down.
But after less than 50hrs listening level was back to normal, grain was gone. Soundstaging was oustanding, holographic imaging. Compare with other expensive brand this spkr wire is far superior.

Maybe in some cables you don't need break in period or maybe its a second hand or demo unit. How can I tell that it has break in period? I experienced it.

Cheers

[AudioAmplified]

don't get me wrong, i am of the opinion that Mundorf is a good cap, it is just that when you hype your product like that, it makes me think....

Mundorf caps can stand on its own even without your saying those statements which is really hard to prove..

i believe what the thread starter was asking about the silver and the gold, are they markings on the cap body and the caps themselves are made from aluminum foil and films instead of matalised films that is why the big size?

are they polypropylenes or teflons? as you know film cap heirarchy is like this, teflon, polycarbonate, and polypropylene,

how are mundorfs compared to auricaps, or wondercaps in terms of DA, dielectric absorption, or DF, dissipation factor?

Sir... i do not know what triggered your angry reply.  For one i did not hype up Mundorf in any place in this thread.  All of the positive reviews were from the end-users themselves, none from me.  Mentioning that "it will take time to break-in" is not also considered hyping it up since i am only stating that customers need be patient with their Mundorf since from our expirience it takes a while for it to break-in never in that reply that you quoted did i say that Mundorf is good or anything to that effect. 

Irritating customers doesnt do our business any good so if i did offend you with my reply, my apologies and please do point out where i have mistakenly offended you so that i will avoid doing it in the future to you or anybody else.  Peace
 

[ATJr.]

Hi,

apologies not needed, i am not offended in any way, had the thread title been "Mundorf CAPS: Subjective Listening Impressions" then i would have ignored this thread.

but then the thread is here and i feel i have to raise questions in behalf of those who might have the same questions as i do.

how many hours a day do you listen to your gears, 1 hour, two hours? let us say 3hours, therefore, one will have to wait  67 days in order to enjoy one's investment, is that fair?

why can't consumers enjoy their purchase from the get go? i find this waiting silly, to say the least.

[AudioAmplified]

The thread was started by butchoy not me (please check the first post).  Initially the thread starter had a different objective when he started the thread however it has since evolved to contain other topics.  Do ask the moderator to change the title or maybe you can request butchoy to change the title if it misleads you since i have no control over how people post their threads nor the stuff they intend to write.  I was just trying my best to answer the question you have raised.

Regarding the fairness of breaking-in.  That is beyond our control too.  This hobby is very subjective so i will not enter an argument on the "fairness" of waiting to realize the full potential of certain products although it is general belief that most audio products, speakers, amps, etc do require breaking-in in one way or another.  Just out of curiosity, what audio products do you know that plays at full potential out of the box?  May I be enlightened.  Perhaps we can carry too for those who have those needs.

We all have the freedom to choose the product which will make you happy.  Maybe Mundorf is just not for your liking thats all.   

Again my deepest apologies if the title has mislead you and my apologies again if our product isn't to your liking.  Thank you

 

[lithium_deuteride]

When I bought my CDP (a Rotel 1070) years ago, out of the box it sounded like crap. Tunog lata. I wasn't unduly worried cause the vendor warned me about the 100-hour break-in period for the Black Gates signal caps daw. Net reviews mentioned the same break-in period and true enough, the sound opened up approaching 100 hours. The vendor was Rene Rivo.

Based on that experience I never had any doubts that caps really need to be broken in.  I thought that was generally accepted especially for solid state devices. 

To be fair to the Mundorf vendors, I've met Tyrone and Noel and bulls**tters they are not. I do believe they are speaking from experience. No need to get all hung up on techno babble, the caps performance will make or break their reputation. 

[ATJr.]

i am not out to question personalities here, i believe these gentelmen are well meaning individuals, i do believe that mundorf caps being made out of polyropylene dielectrics are good stuff when compared to mylars or polyesters.

i do however question the practice of breaking-in, why can't users enjoy their purchase without waiting days or months?   

[alexg]

i do however question the practice of breaking-in, why can't users enjoy their purchase without waiting days or months?   

I wish life is so simple.

Cars need to be broken in. Computers burned in. Others claim speakers and IC needs to be broken in. New aircraft tested and broken in. I break in my guns before they shoot consistently. These are just facts of life.

As to capacitors needing breaking in, in my experience on a couple of projects, I immediately notice the improvement after I replaced my coupling capacitors with mundorf, and it is the cheaper kind (Supreme and ZN). I have noticed improvement as time goes on, but is this breaking-in or psychoacoustics (me getting used to the sound)?. Well, audio is a very subjective hobby, to each his own.

[ATJr.]

Cars need to be broken in.

agreed, but i doubt that the salesperson tells you, be patient, your car will run deteriorated for the next 10 days, but after 150 to 200 days it will run smooth as silk...who do you think will buy that kind of a car?

Computers burned in.

begging your pardon sir, computers need to run smoothlessly from powerup, otherwise we return them, RMA, because it did not meet out expectations...try asking at Tipidpc.com, find out what they will say..

[Le_Stat]

Regarding the difference in specs or performance of Mundorf to other caps, it would be best to ask this to those who have access to both materials.   It's better to ask someone who experienced, but unbiased.  Preferably a consumer who experienced both.  You can also ask Levi, who upgraded his CD player before to Auricaps from Rene Rivo.  But just over 2 weeks ago Levi then tried out the Mundorfs of the same CD player.

Im no techie but from experience there are a lot of things that needs to be broken in in order for their full potential to be enjoyed.

It's like a Virgin.  Sa una panget performance.  After 1 month ok na.  As time still passes by, performance gets better.  After several years, its time to upgrade to another unit.... or maybe borrow a spare unit. 

[ATJr.]

i have no issue with mundorf caps, i have said before and i will say again, i believe they are good caps.

my issue is why can we not enjoy them from the start and had to wait 200hours....? is this fair???

[Le_Stat]

is this fair???

nope, its not. 

What are your experiences with caps and which do you prefer? or this does not matter and just enjoy the music?  Will a more technical knowledge be more important than the actual hearing tests?

[rascal101]

It is not fair. Nor is it fair that the term break-in is abused. What is known is that the human psyche can be influenced by "favorable" inputs from "well meaning" individuals and the amount of money spent.