Topic: HELP: NAD Integrated or Rotel Power Amp

[bhongskie]

Guys I need your honest opinions please.  I am in a dilemna right now.  I cant make up my mind as to which to choose.  Here's the background:

I have an HK240 and Diamond 9.5 which I use for both Audio and HT applications (more on audio, around 70% of the time).  I wanted to have a more decent audio setup so I'm thinking of two options:

 1.) separate entirely the audio setup and get the NAD C372 integrated

 2.) just beef up the HK 240 (for audio purposes) by acquiring a Rotel RB-1070 and the HK as pre-amp.

I am leaning more towards option 2 because it is more economical (no separate speakers, etc.)  One thing that might convince me to go for the NAD 372 is if it can be used as a power amp (main-in i think is the requirement here) because then I will have flexibility as I can use the NAD as power amp or as an integrated which is what it was intended to be.

Can you help me on this?  Have a hard time making a decision.  I want to make it right this time coz I'm tired of upgrading in so short a time.  I also want to keep the gear for years to come say mga 5 years before a major purchase again.

I can't audition the units in my home so I really can't compare in terms of sonics here.  Siguro and basehan na lang is on quality of product, flexibility in terms of application, etc.  In terms of price naman, I am only prepared to shell out 40K for an integrated or a power amp.  The NAD and Rotel are almost priced the same (42K and 43K respectively) but with a little discount so pasok 40K ko. 

If you guys know of pre-owned gears for sale let me know and please share any suggestions outside the ones I am considering. 

Need your opinions badly.  Appreciate any input.  Thanks!

[bumblebee]

NAD C320BEE + mid-level speakers for me.

[oweidah]

nad c320bee + wharfedale diamond 9.5 for me

bro, pag power amp / avr preamp combi, dapat mag-match silang dalawa. its not dat simple as it seems pag di nag-match. ask the experts about sensitivity, gain matching etc.

[bumblebee]

If you're biamping, matching gain is "ideal". As for sensitivity (for pre/power config), I read somewhere that with today's electronics, this shouldn't be a problem anymore->any pre can drive any power amp.

[bhongskie]

Thank you sirs oweidah and bumblebee! Appreciate your inputs.

I like your suggestions, I will save a lot here   

In fact, I have already auditioned the 320BEE with the 9.5 and I like this combi better than the C352 + 9.5 which I auditioned side by side.

Reason I'm aiming for the NAD 372 instead of the 352 or 320BEE is because sabi nga "go for more power".  My listening are currently measures 4x5 meters so ok na yung 320BEE but if I move to a bigger place my reserve power na sa 372 at 150wpc.

I'm seriously considering your suggestions sirs.  Thanks!

[MAtZTER]

You forgot to mention about your CD player. For me, a good CDp is equally crucial in this audio equation, not just the amp used.

My recommendation would be a good CDP plus the Rotel amp. A friend told me that he heard a Rotel/Wharfe 8 combo & it was really good.

I am currently using a Rotel 5 channel power amp to power hard to drive Dynaudio FS for audio, the sound is just wonderful (w/ a tube preamp, I prefer hybrid).

Also once used a HK630 to bi-amp 3 front channels with this rotel power amp for better (2 channel) music & HT experience in a 12sqm room, result was stunning (pardon the immodesty ).

[av_phile1]

I'd go for Option 2.  The RB1070 should have some dramatic improvements from the HK's 50w RMS to the Rotel's 130w RMS for your front 2 channels for stereo listening. 

The Nad C372 is also a great option but you'd need a really good CD player with excellent DAC and op-amps for great analog sound.  I don't think the Nad integrated allows for toslink connection.  The HK can process digitally via toslink so you won't need to upgrade your CD player as its digital out via toslink will use the DAC of your HK which is said to be quite good. 

[bhongskie]

Thanks for your inputs sir matzter. 

I'm on the look out as well for a new CDP to go with the amp purchase.  Seriously considering a NAD cdp (321BEE yata model I forgot) or the HK HD-970.  Not looking at Rotel CDPs at the moment coz it's priced higher.  But then if ever I purchase the Rotel amp then Rotel CDP na rin kukunin ko.  Kapag naman NAD integrated, NAD na rin CDP ko or HK.

I'm eyeing sana a universal player na to play CD / SACD / DVD-Audio.  Does a universal player paly CD Audio as well as a dedicated CDP?

Nga pala matanong ko na rin,  are Singapore prices of hi-fi gears lower than here in the Philippines?

[bhongskie]

I'd go for Option 2.  The RB1070 should have some dramatic improvements from the HK's 50w RMS to the Rotel's 130w RMS for your front 2 channels for stereo listening. 

The Nad C372 is also a great option but you'd need a really good CD player with excellent DAC and op-amps for great analog sound.  I don't think the Nad integrated allows for toslink connection.  The HK can process digitally via toslink so you won't need to upgrade your CD player as its digital out via toslink will use the DAC of your HK which is said to be quite good. 

Thanks sir av_phile.

Do you mean I can only use HK's DAC via toslink sir?  Di pwede sa coaxial?  Coz right now I only use my Philips DVD player as my cdp but its connected via coaxial to the HK

[av_phile1]

Coax and toslink for digital connection are both fine to me. Just make sure the Coax cable has the proper 75 ohm impedance.   When I said toslink connection, I should have just said digital connection.   

[MAtZTER]

I'd go for Option 2.  The RB1070 should have some dramatic improvements from the HK's 50w RMS to the Rotel's 130w RMS for your front 2 channels for stereo listening. 

The HK can process digitally via toslink so you won't need to upgrade your CD player as its digital out via toslink will use the DAC of your HK which is said to be quite good. 

Option 2 can be flexible & more advantageous in the sense that both your HT & audio experience will improve.

Yes, I agree w/ sir AV. The DAC of the HK is quite good. So you could settle w/ using your DVDp via coax or toslink for the meantime. BUT...I would still recommend that you get a good dedicated CDp when you have the funds. In my case, my 96/24 CDp outperformed the 192/24 DAC of my HK receiver. The sonic differences were undeniable, considering that that the HK was a high model (HK uses different processors per model). A shop owner once told me that the HK630 was already the most formidable receiver DAC he has ever encountered in an AVR, nearing (but not beating) the performance of dedicated 2 channel dacs. A good CDp will beat an AVR's DACS & it will be a good upgrade path for your audio setup.

Surplus CDp's didnt make a difference in sonics IMO, since I think maybe the top level HK processors beat the age old surplus CDp DACS, even if they were flagship models of the 80's.

[bhongskie]

Coax and toslink for digital connection are both fine to me. Just make sure the Coax cable has the proper 75 ohm impedance.   When I said toslink connection, I should have just said digital connection.   

Got it   

So for Option 2, a dedicated CDP is not really an urgent neccessity.  I can just use the Phillips DVD as transport in the meantime   

[bhongskie]

@ matzter, tama sir I can put up with my dvd player as my cdp in the meantime but ultimately hahanapin ko rin yung sound ng dedicated CDP.  What are your suggestions?  I am only operating on a budget of 15K for a cdp.

thanks

[MAtZTER]

Try pre owned Rotel CDp's w/ your budget. I particularly liked the RCD 1070, but still opted for a tube CDp in the end cuz I prefer a hybrid tube setup. 

If you listen to music a LOT, you will realize that investing in a good CDp will be well worth it. Even if its expensive.

[av_phile1]

Either that or get an external upsampling DAC with your philips DVD as transport only.  So nothing gets thrown out.  Just not so sure if 15T will hack it. Maybe a preowned musical fidelity DAC.  If not mistaken, the dCS Elgar and Purcell upsampling DACs can upsample any redbook CD to DVD-A and/or SACD DSD rates.  You just might have to quintuple or sextuple your 15T to get a preowned one though.    

[bhongskie]

yeah I'm also looking for pre-owned but mint gears as alternative to save some cash.

I do listen to a lot to music but my kind of music perhaps wont need very high-end gears to sound just fine for me.  I usually listen to rock, new wave, some RNB, pop, some classic but very seldom on instrumental or songs with more emphasis on vocals. 

However, I am sure if I get the right gears siguro magugustuhan ko na rin yung mga vocals and instrumentals. I'm no audiophile, I dont even have the slightest idea what is imaging, soundstage, etc.  I just want to hear the sound that would be satisfy my ears, even that I am working on...   Basta if I hear that sound alam ko na yun na yung gusto ko.

Never ever heard tubes. pag may eb invite nyo naman ako para naman magkamuwang ako sa high-end sound   

[av_phile1]

Tubes are best for midrange and vocals.  But if you like deep bass and "makalansing" highs,  go solid state. 

The finest sound systems are said to be tri-amped.  Using multiple SS powred subwoofers for bass, tube amps or tube preamp driven SS amps for the mids, and special SS amps to power ribbon tweets.  But you need electronic crossovers.  The speakers have NO passive crossovers.  They are directly driven by amps. 

[bhongskie]

@ av_phile, sir I cannot afford to shell out that much, sa cdp na lang ako  

[bhongskie]

Tubes are best for midrange and vocals.  But if you like deep bass and "makalansing" highs,  go solid state. 

yeah I heard, midrange and vocals are tubes' turf and that's why its not my cup of tea..siguro for now. I'll see if I can be swayed to tubes when i hear them.  baka mag switch na rin music preference ko   

heard also medyo may kelangang maintenance with tubes compared sa ss

[av_phile1]

heard also medyo may kelangang maintenance with tubes compared sa ss

You may have to replace them after a few hundred hours of use. And sometimes using another brand or tube spec can bring a totaly new sonic character.   And you may have to wait 20-30 mins from power up to start listening.    Am no Tube afficionado myself.  Just know about a few quirks from my father's tube gears.

[bhongskie]

hmm currently its 2 for option 1 (albeit 320BEE not 372) and 2 as well for option 2.  I really need to audition again those set-ups.  Where do you guys think i can audition a rotel + wharfe combo?

I'm giving the 320BEE option a serious thought but do you guys really think i will get a significant improvement on 320BEE (50wpc) + 9.5 as against the HK240 (60wpc in 2 channel) + 9.5 which i currently have?  I need to do a lot of auditioning indeed.  But for those with previous experience, please share your thoughts.

thanks

[bumblebee]

You will get significant "improvement" if you change speakers.

Sonny Tuazon's The Home Theater carries Rotel and Wharfedale.

[av_phile1]

I'm giving the 320BEE option a serious thought but do you guys really think i will get a significant improvement on 320BEE (50wpc) + 9.5 as against the HK240 (60wpc in 2 channel) + 9.5 which i currently have? 

I thought you wanted the C372.  Going C320 from the HK240 would NOT matter as 50wrms and 60wrms would give you the same preceived decibels. 

[av_phile1]

You will get significant "improvement" if you change speakers.

If he changed to speakers with 3db more sensitivity, that would be tantamount to doubling his amp power. 

[saltuhin]

bhongskie,

i just want to share with you my personal experience which may not be true with anybody else.

i have both the diamond 9.5 and the nad c352 for reference. i started out on this hobby with the diamond 9.5, yamaha rxv 440 and diamond surrounds. to make the story short there came a time when i wanted a different sound, leaning more on audio this time. without much auditioning i bought the c352 thinking that it is an upgrade for audio. after hooking up the gears i asked myself- where's the upgrade? there is not much difference in sound coming from the nad/wharfe combo. there is just minimal difference, although better. after that i ended up acquiring an MA b4 which gave significantly better sonics than the nad/wharfe combo.

bottom line- for your 40k, get a dedicated audio setup. maybe the nad 320bee and a mid level bookshelf speaker and a lot of other options. i think you will be more satisfied. just me though.

[titan]

sir bongskie,

saan po available nad 320bee? Bnew or secondhand?  I'm also in the hunt  for this amp. TIA

[allan1836]

Sharing lang po a personal experience with cdp. I was using a Philips DVD player as my audio source for awhile , thinking that its 96/24 bit DACS, is an improvement over old cdp's. But recently I bought a used mid 90's Sony cdp for comparison and to my surprise, the mid level model Sony cdp tromped over the Philips DVD with the latest DAC. The Sony did better in every department.
With regards to newer cdp's, I heard the NAD 18T model with HDCD and a Rotel 30T+ (?) model and IMHO, I prefer the NAD.
For me its more neutral and relaxed though the transparency and dynamics are still intact. Tnx   

[bhongskie]

I thought you wanted the C372.  Going C320 from the HK240 would NOT matter as 50wrms and 60wrms would give you the same preceived decibels. 

I am keen on the 372 but sirs bumblebee and oweidah suggested a 320BEE and I thought its worth a serious look since I have actually auditioned the 320 (50wpc) and 352 (80wpc) side by side with the wharfe 9.5.  The 320 is a little better than the 352 to my ears.  I wonder how the 372 would fare.

There really is not much difference between the HK240 and 320BEE in terms of power output.  But just to share, last friday I auditioned the integrated HK970 (70wpc) with its matching CDP the HD970 vs. the HK240 AVR (60 wpc) using infinity beta 20 speakers.  I did hear a significant difference in sound.  I cant describe the difference accurately in words but its like the AVR240's sound output has a shroud while the HK 970 has very clear (or is it what you call detailed sound) sonics.  The integrated is really much better than the AVR with comparable power output.  My conclusion then is that an integrated even with comparable or lower power output would trounce an AVR at about the same price level when it comes to 2 channel music.

[bhongskie]

You will get significant "improvement" if you change speakers.

Sonny Tuazon's The Home Theater carries Rotel and Wharfedale.

thanks bumblebee.  I have texted SGT but I got no reply.  might just have to visit his store in the next few days

[bhongskie]

@ allan and saltuhin,  thanks bros for sharing. 

I had a similar starter setup (9.5 + yammy 440).  I bought a new receiver with pre-outs becoz I was eyeing an upgrade path built around a good power amp and so the rotel option.  I was also considering a separate audio setup but I think it's costly given the added cash requirement for speakers.