Topic: WDTV or better saveup for a better NMT Player (PCH/E-great) ???

[doughn]

Max it out.  As much as your OS can recognize.  3.25GB in case of Vista.  Hindi ka naman pedeng bumili ng "tingi" so just insert 4GB of RAM.

okies.... salamats
 im really torn between PCH/Egreat  and X200 acer....

[Alfie]

Sirs, for our HTPC requirements, the more important thing is the video processors support for hardware acceleration for HD videos (h.264 formats) ... some of the most expensive high-end video cards that were released early last year does not have such feature, and most of the newly released integrated graphics cards on motherboards have the hardware acceleration for HD videos ... hence, an upgrade to a discrete video card will not necessarily mean an improvement on watching HD movies - improvement would just likely be on 3D performance.

What happens if the video card does not support hardware acceleration for HD video is that the encoding/ddecoding process is mostly handled by the CPU and not the graphics processor, hence if you have an old or low powered processor, you may experience issues (freezing, chopiness, pixelization, etc.) ... if you have a graphics processor with HD acceleration however, you do not really need a powerful CPU for HTPC purposes.

The best integrated graphics processor available are the Radeons built-in on AMD 780G-based motherboards ... these are usually paired with single-core AMD Sempron (LE series) for HTPC usage - this makes for a cheap, low-power consumption, and low-noise HTPC system ... there are a lot of positive reviews for such HTPC setups on popular computer tech sites (such as Anandtech and Toms Hardware).

I would recommend upgrading the memory of the X3200 rather than adding discrete video card if the purpose is primarily HT.

Raptor- Thank you for your info, now we know better.

[Huddaf]

Sirs, for our HTPC requirements, the more important thing is the video processors support for hardware acceleration for HD videos (h.264 formats) ... some of the most expensive high-end video cards that were released early last year does not have such feature, and most of the newly released integrated graphics cards on motherboards have the hardware acceleration for HD videos ... hence, an upgrade to a discrete video card will not necessarily mean an improvement on watching HD movies - improvement would just likely be on 3D performance.

What happens if the video card does not support hardware acceleration for HD video is that the encoding/ddecoding process is mostly handled by the CPU and not the graphics processor, hence if you have an old or low powered processor, you may experience issues (freezing, chopiness, pixelization, etc.) ... if you have a graphics processor with HD acceleration however, you do not really need a powerful CPU for HTPC purposes.

The best integrated graphics processor available are the Radeons built-in on AMD 780G-based motherboards ... these are usually paired with single-core AMD Sempron (LE series) for HTPC usage - this makes for a cheap, low-power consumption, and low-noise HTPC system ... there are a lot of positive reviews for such HTPC setups on popular computer tech sites (such as Anandtech and Toms Hardware).

I would recommend upgrading the memory of the X3200 rather than adding discrete video card if the purpose is primarily HT.

+1 well said.

[barrister]

Ang galing ng info mo, sir raptor.  Thanks!

[raptor]

Ang galing ng info mo, sir raptor.  Thanks!

Sir, actually if you will build a system based on the hardware combination I mentioned above (AMD 780G-based motherboard and AMD Sempron), mga 15k  complete na yung system (minus the PC monitor) .... the price is at par with the price of the PCH and Egreats.

Here's a sample estimate -

2k - Casing (I-Cute QS02)
2.4k - CPU (AMD Sempron LE1640)
2.3k - 4GB Memory (Geil DDR2 4GB Dual)
3.7K - Motherboard (Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H)
3.6k - 500GB HDD
1.4k - DVD-RW

That's approx. 15k lang and puro quality brands pa yung nasa list ... you even have an opportunity to reduce the cost - pwede bawasan memory, yung 2GB kasi pwede na for HT

 

[iiinas]

Sir, actually if you will build a system based on the hardware combination I mentioned above (AMD 780G-based motherboard and AMD Sempron), mga 15k  complete na yung system (minus the PC monitor) .... the price is at par with the price of the PCH and Egreats.

Here's a sample estimate -

2k - Casing (I-Cute QS02)
2.4k - CPU (AMD Sempron LE1640)
2.3k - 4GB Memory (Geil DDR2 4GB Dual)
3.7K - Motherboard (Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H)
3.6k - 500GB HDD
1.4k - DVD-RW

That's approx. 15k lang and puro quality brands pa yung nasa list ... you even have an opportunity to reduce the cost - pwede bawasan memory, yung 2GB kasi pwede na for HT

 

very competitive. and you already have 500 gb hdd. galing.

sir raptor, i notice sa casing ng htpc laging i-cute yung nilalagay, do you have pix of this? mukha na ba syang av component kaysa computer?

[docelmo]

very competitive. and you already have 500 gb hdd. galing.

sir raptor, i notice sa casing ng htpc laging i-cute yung nilalagay, do you have pix of this? mukha na ba syang av component kaysa computer?

Bro, i think that's sir nerve's htpc casing posted dun sa "htpc set-up" thread.
 

[raptor]

very competitive. and you already have 500 gb hdd. galing.

sir raptor, i notice sa casing ng htpc laging i-cute yung nilalagay, do you have pix of this? mukha na ba syang av component kaysa computer?

the I-Cute QS02 is a slim type casing that looks like an AV component and fits on AV racks ... ideally, mas maganda yung mga Antec or Silver Stone casing dahil pang HTPC design talaga - price however is more than four times ... for budget conscious, I-Cute, for those with budget I would recommend the Antec Fusion series casings (but still using the internal components mentioned on my post + additional HDD for more contents)

[Clondalkin]

Hi Raptor.  Please include the price of OS.   

Is your recommended single core system actually tested with those high bitstream 1080p files I usually mention?  I only feel the hardware acceleration effect of my HD4850 and HD3870 when playing original HD DVD via PowerDVD or Nero.  The 4850 couldnt even help a 3.0Ghz Pentium D machine.  Original HD DVDs play well, 1080p mkv wont.

I still think the CPU is the most critical component strictly for proper playback of 1080p streams in mkv containers, and then the codec. 

[iiinas]

the I-Cute QS02 is a slim type casing that looks like an AV component and fits on AV racks ... ideally, mas maganda yung mga Antec or Silver Stone casing dahil pang HTPC design talaga - price however is more than four times ... for budget conscious, I-Cute, for those with budget I would recommend the Antec Fusion series casings (but still using the internal components mentioned on my post + additional HDD for more contents)

thanks sir raptor. very interesting. 

Bro, i think that's sir nerve's htpc casing posted dun sa "htpc set-up" thread.
 

thanks doc, will have a look see. 

[raptor]

Hi Raptor.  Please include the price of OS.   

Is your recommended single core system actually tested with those high bitstream 1080p files I usually mention?  I only feel the hardware acceleration effect of my HD4850 and HD3870 when playing original HD DVD via PowerDVD or Nero.  The 4850 couldnt even help a 3.0Ghz Pentium D machine.  Original HD DVDs play well, 1080p mkv wont.

I still think the CPU is the most critical component strictly for proper playback of 1080p streams in mkv containers, and then the codec. 

Sir,

Based on the expert reviews, the 780G-based motherboards paired AMD Athlon LE1640 single-core processor should be able to play smooth video without any issues, even the full HD 1080p movies.  You may refer to the following links on results of the tests that were conducted -

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-780g-chipset,1785-2.html
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3258&p=1

On Tom's Hardware website review, they used an even slower single-core processor for testing Blu-ray (1080p) movies.  They used a Sempron 3500+ (single-core 1.8GHz CPU), which is older architecture and slower than the Athlon LE1640 (2.7GHz).  The Sempron 3500+ performed very well, with only an average CPU utilization of 63%+.  They even used a lower model CPU, Sempron 3000+ (1.6GHz), and it still performed without any issues on the Blu-ray 1080p movies using PowerDVD when paired with the 780G-based motherboard.  The only issue they got with the Sempron 3000+ was that the CPU was too slow for Windows Vista - almost 3 minutes daw ang boot-up.

On Anandtech website review, they used an entry level dual core processor, Ahtlon 4850e (2.5GHz).  The results on playing different Blu-ray and 1080p H.264 movies were also very good.  Note that the 4850e is only PhP 700 more expensive than the LE1640, so if you're planning to work on other things on the background while playing 1080p movies, this is another option.  The results shows that the CPU utilization was less than 20% when playing the HD movies.

The good thing about the Anandtech review was that they showed benchmark comparison with systems using a video controller that does not have hardware acceleration for decoding HD movies - it shows that the CPU utilization shoots up 3 to 4 times compared to the video controller of the 780G-based motherboard.  By the way, the integrated video controller of the 780G is a Radeon HD3200.  The key is really the hardware HD decode capability. 

Another analogy that I can mention are the NVidia GEForce video cards released last year.  NVidia released first the high-end models, the GE Force 8800GT/GTS/GTX - these were priced at PhP 25k to 35k.  These high-end models did not have hardware based HD decode capabilities, and during testing of Blu-ray movies, the CPU utilization reaches 80 to 90%.  When NVidia release the mid-range levels (8600GTS), that were priced at 6k to 9k, they included the hardware HD decode - tests shows that CPU utilization dropped to 20%+ on the average when playing 1080p movies.

If the purpose of the CPU is the same as the NMT's - media player only, LE1640 is more than enough.  If it is a general purpose PC, the dual-core Athlon 5000 is only PhP 1k more expensive than the LE1640 - that one or a higher model is recommended.

Regarding the price of the OS, yup you're right on this one.  But if you're really tight on budget, there's always the Linux Media Center OS that's downloadable for free - all NMT's are Linux-based anyway. 

[Clondalkin]

Thanks Raptor,

Browsing through the review of Anandtech and TH, their tests were based solely on BD, HD DVD and recorded HD content.  I can understand why none of these sites would test the MKVs which, in most cases, are what we're actually referring in this site when it comes to "hd files".

Again based on my experience, PowerDVD Ultra does not have any problems handling any of the optical disks and the TS files (including m2ts) no matter how big the filesize is and how high the bitrate is because hardware acceleration is conveniently enabled.  The "1080p files" as we commonly understand in this board are certainly heavier in my test rigs using KMP or MPC or GOM.  Case in point, the Pentium D machine Ive been trying to tweak - that plays all my HD-DVDs quite well but struggles so bad even with 8GB 1080p MKV.

Well anyway, hopefully I'd get hold of one of this Sempron powered PCs with 780 chipset and give it a push with the "hd files."

I think the member Momay has set-up his PC to tap hardware acceleration for 1080p MKVs, using MPC Home Cinema for playback, but I havent tried that myself. - condition is, the file has to be DXVA compliant to begin with - but not all of them are.

I'd dare estimate that at least 1 in every 10,000 PC user would even think of running their PC on Linux.   So in this board, you're probably the only one, or one of the few ones?   

[rj_md]

save up...WDTV just wont cut it. not yet at least.

[raptor]

I'd dare estimate that at least 1 in every 10,000 PC user would even think of running their PC on Linux.   So in this board, you're probably the only one, or one of the few ones?   

Unknowingly, all NMT users are already Linux users ... its using embedded Linux as core OS 

But kidding aside, the new versions of Linux are very user friendly - if you know how to use Windows, you'll easily get a hang of the new Linux interfaces ... this is one reason why the Asus EEE PC became very popular ... Linux media center is actually more advance than the Windows media center - besides the media player capability, it also has an integrated unified communication system that would allow you to interface SIP phones (parang may PBX ka na sa bahay) + some video security stuff functionality.

I'm using Ubuntu Linux on one of my PC rigs, very user friendly, parang naka-Windows ka na mas stable ....try Ubuntu Linux, its downloadable for free, and if you register on their site, they will even send free DVD installers including free shipment.

[doughn]

Sir, actually if you will build a system based on the hardware combination I mentioned above (AMD 780G-based motherboard and AMD Sempron), mga 15k  complete na yung system (minus the PC monitor) .... the price is at par with the price of the PCH and Egreats.

@raptor, sir may hdmi na ba ito? sori newbie here, and can it play 1080p mkv file? hehehe?  TIA

Here's a sample estimate -

2k - Casing (I-Cute QS02)
2.4k - CPU (AMD Sempron LE1640)
2.3k - 4GB Memory (Geil DDR2 4GB Dual)
3.7K - Motherboard (Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H)
3.6k - 500GB HDD
1.4k - DVD-RW

That's approx. 15k lang and puro quality brands pa yung nasa list ... you even have an opportunity to reduce the cost - pwede bawasan memory, yung 2GB kasi pwede na for HT

 

[raptor]

Yup, may hdmi and optical out ... it's a PC, as long as you install the codecs and media players (that are downloadable for free), it will play all the media file that you can throw into it

I would recommend the Gigabyte Motherboard (GA-MA78GM-S2H)

[HD_MOVIES]

based on my initial observation, as long as dxva compliant yung pagkakaencode nung MKV, then kayang kaya i-play ng WD HD TV.. so kung nagtitipid ka, get the WDHDTV then download those dxva MKV's.. for 720p, so far no issues..

[thesaint]

Paano malalaman kung dvxa compliant yung pagkakalagay sa container na MKV?
Kadalasan naman encoded sa H.264 yung video di ba? MP4 din kaso compress lang.
Kaya hirap mag play yung mabagal na HTPC or low end na media player sa 1080p MKV.

[espi]

there's firmware update for this unit. i'm not quite sure how it is after the update...hopefully it's going to resolve everything...

i'm planning to get one kasi...

[gren]

actually, i think if you're using codec packs and other non-commercial player releases, most of your processing comes via the CPU.  at least, this is my understanding of it -- x.264 acceleration is only supported on blu-ray discs and whatnot, most of your decoding/processing/rendering is still done via cpu, can you confirm this?

as such, the 780g platform, good as it is, is not primarily responsible for smoothly playing back mkv files -- it's still very much dependent on your CPU.

we're currently playing around with a low power x2 (2ghz i think, 3200 le? can't really remember, but it's more expensive than a 5000+ X2, probably by 500 pesos, which isn't bad as they can be had for a bit over 3k) and we still observed frame loss on certain high bit rate titles (which was not the case with the 2.6ghz 5000+).  It's nice for a low power / heat setup but might take more efficient codecs to render high bitrate files more consistently.

in any case, the 780g is the de facto choice for any decent system, htpc or otherwise.

oh, another question, is the wdtv a linux embedded device as well?

Sir,

Based on the expert reviews, the 780G-based motherboards paired AMD Athlon LE1640 single-core processor should be able to play smooth video without any issues, even the full HD 1080p movies.  You may refer to the following links on results of the tests that were conducted -

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-780g-chipset,1785-2.html
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3258&p=1

On Tom's Hardware website review, they used an even slower single-core processor for testing Blu-ray (1080p) movies.  They used a Sempron 3500+ (single-core 1.8GHz CPU), which is older architecture and slower than the Athlon LE1640 (2.7GHz).  The Sempron 3500+ performed very well, with only an average CPU utilization of 63%+.  They even used a lower model CPU, Sempron 3000+ (1.6GHz), and it still performed without any issues on the Blu-ray 1080p movies using PowerDVD when paired with the 780G-based motherboard.  The only issue they got with the Sempron 3000+ was that the CPU was too slow for Windows Vista - almost 3 minutes daw ang boot-up.

On Anandtech website review, they used an entry level dual core processor, Ahtlon 4850e (2.5GHz).  The results on playing different Blu-ray and 1080p H.264 movies were also very good.  Note that the 4850e is only PhP 700 more expensive than the LE1640, so if you're planning to work on other things on the background while playing 1080p movies, this is another option.  The results shows that the CPU utilization was less than 20% when playing the HD movies.

The good thing about the Anandtech review was that they showed benchmark comparison with systems using a video controller that does not have hardware acceleration for decoding HD movies - it shows that the CPU utilization shoots up 3 to 4 times compared to the video controller of the 780G-based motherboard.  By the way, the integrated video controller of the 780G is a Radeon HD3200.  The key is really the hardware HD decode capability. 

Another analogy that I can mention are the NVidia GEForce video cards released last year.  NVidia released first the high-end models, the GE Force 8800GT/GTS/GTX - these were priced at PhP 25k to 35k.  These high-end models did not have hardware based HD decode capabilities, and during testing of Blu-ray movies, the CPU utilization reaches 80 to 90%.  When NVidia release the mid-range levels (8600GTS), that were priced at 6k to 9k, they included the hardware HD decode - tests shows that CPU utilization dropped to 20%+ on the average when playing 1080p movies.

If the purpose of the CPU is the same as the NMT's - media player only, LE1640 is more than enough.  If it is a general purpose PC, the dual-core Athlon 5000 is only PhP 1k more expensive than the LE1640 - that one or a higher model is recommended.

Regarding the price of the OS, yup you're right on this one.  But if you're really tight on budget, there's always the Linux Media Center OS that's downloadable for free - all NMT's are Linux-based anyway. 

[jinx999]

i bought the WD HD for the following reasons:

1. i download torrents from the office (good way to use company resources  ) so i rely heavily on my external HD
2. my pc is downstairs, my bedroom is upstairs.


i agree with the ipod analogy. if you want music, get an ipod. if you want it with a touchscreen, get an ipod touch 

After reading this thread I came to a conclusion that you really have to know what you want and how much you are willing to pay for it.  You wouldn't buy a Ferrari only to drive it in CM Recto where a Toyota would suffice.  I guess comparing WDTV to PCH/E-Great/TVix is like comparing apples to oranges unless you are only comparing their playback capabilities.

Like Sir Pooch's situation, my A/V setup is quite far from my DSL modem/router.  Though PCH/E-great has a wireless LAN option to solve this problem.
I've read in an Australian forum that there are cases where the WDTV plays smoother MKV vids compared to the PCH A110.  Maybe downloading torrents while playing vids had an effect to the playback.  HTPC is probably the most flexible setup of them all however the 2 min boot up sequence is a turn off for me.

Here are my reasons for opting for a WDTV:
1. I do want a NMT that downloads file without having my laptop turned on 24/7 that doubles as a player however, i do realize that if it breaks then i lose everything as well.  OffT:  Asus WL-500g can do this function w/o the media player capability and has other features like wifi printing.  There is an advantage and disadvantage to having one gadget that does everything.
2. E-Great/PCH is promising coz even w/ my A/V setup being far from my Internet source, it does support wifi so I can still connect it to my home wifi.  Then again i'm a Mac user and E-Great doesn't support HFS.  Not sure about popcorn hour and website doesn't indicate file format support.  TVIX does not support HFS as well.
3. Last but not the least is the price.  If asked to choose between a torrent downloader and a media player, I would prioritize the media player.  For the same price as the PCH I already have a WDTV and a 1TB drive.

My only question is.. Are there MKVs that the WDTV is not capable of playing?  Maybe future firmware upgrades will address this. 1.0.1 might do the trick already as we speak.

For those with deep pockets I guess TVIX would be it for NMTs and if you don't mind using NTFS/FAT32 for your drive.
Choose your poison

In summary, all these gadgets are great as long as you buy them for what they are built for and maximize all the features.  That way you get your money's worth.  This thread has been really informative and helpful.  Thanks to all the GURUs.

"Once you go MAC, you don't go back"

[koykoy]

Makikisakay na lang sa post for WDTV.  So basically, WDTV just "doesnt cut it" for 1080p files.  How about 720p files? Would the majority of the available 720p files play well on the WDTV?

[pooch]

actually now i have 2 WDTVs 

regarding 1080p files, for me it plays without a hitch with the current firmware.


things i dont like:
no network connectivity
only external HD
the ff and rewind is still a b*tch 

other than that, it works for me.

[sardaukar]

All 720p files so far have played and most of the 1080p files have played without problems.

As for the original question of the thread this is the route I took:

WDTV first (cause I can't wait anymore and it plays most files anyway) then in about a year or so when prices of the PCH and Egreat go down to about 6k I can upgrade. So for the price of a PCH or Egreat today, I can have the PCH/Egreat plus the WDTV.

[koykoy]

^^Yes, that was my thinking too.  My TV is only 720p capable so no need for 1080p.  HTPC would seem a lot of work.

Actually, I do have the mediagate 350NDAS but didnt able to use the network function so I think, the WDTV would work for me....

Thanks for the info poock and sardaukar

[stat]

regarding 1080p content, my wdtv doesn't have problems playing it. i have those 8gb 1080p files.