Topic: How do I allocate?

[streetsmart]

I think that if we go back to the basic issue, it is the point of whether or not instruments are useful for acoustic calibration.

I believe that Alvin has written a tremendously informative and convincing explanation on why instruments are so important. And after the work with the instruments, you know what particular type of acoustic treatment is needed and it is only then that you choose among the many suppliers for acoustic treatments. This is the way I would go.

[alvinthx2]

I think that if we go back to the basic issue, it is the point of whether or not instruments are useful for acoustic calibration.

I believe that Alvin has written a tremendously informative and convincing explanation on why instruments are so important. And after the work with the instruments, you know what particular type of acoustic treatment is needed and it is only then that you choose among the many suppliers for acoustic treatments. This is the way I would go.

By the way, if you google "abflector," you get 365 hits, all of them related to acoustic treatment. If you google "abflussive," google asks you if you mean "abusive."  I would say probably yes. 

Mark, thank you for the trust. I just don't get it with this guy, I even put a good word for him in the other forum a few months back. He question my methodology and now he is even in the ATTACK mode. i think I have a better guarantee than he has. IF YOU ARE NOT SATISFIED, YOU DON'T PAY.

[alvinthx2]

MR. S

May we know the Specs. of your Abflectors?

Alvin

[audiojunkie]

Mga Sirs! meron part-2 pa raw bukas, aabangan ko yan... marami talaga akong natutunan,pati mga bagong teminology....                   

[voj]

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk... another thread hijacked.  Not to offend anybody, why don't we all go back to the concerns of the threadstarter before this gets way off-topic.  I apologize also for disrupting your healthy discussions but maybe you can start another thread on those topics.

[alvinthx2]

agreed

[SoLiDtUbEs]

Alvin,

We are not on attack mode here and we think voj is right this subject really deserves if ever a thread of it's own. As we mentioned we use what we call in our design ABFLUSSIVE materials which we derived from the RPG coined word ABFFUSION.

It simply means a simultaneous surface treatment we incorporate on our ABFLECTORS to do the tasks of both absorption and diffusion at the same time.This design exists and was not plucked out of thin air. We  try to parallel and construct our ABFLECTOR panels as such. How we do it is of course our business.

We also reserve the right to maintain our design specifications to ourselves inclusive of the materials we use. Only logical since we have not really applied for any patents and would be glad to see other enterprising DIY's enthusiaists to discover substitute materials on their own.Our RD is always on current settings as well. This is why to ensure the satisfaction level and consumer rights of our customers we give a Limited 30 days MONEY back guarantee.

It would simply be foolhardy and fraudulent for us or anybody to use the exact coined word ABFFUSION since it is protected by U.S Patents. Moreover we use entirely different materials as well anyway. Even if the design is admittedly derived. In the same way perhaps as Marx derived his philosophy of hisory from Hegel. We would like to think we have designed an equal if not an economical and better product.

Your friends actually started this fiasco when they started to quote me out of context. They have even insinuated we have invented the design of what we call AFLUSSIVE or ABFLUSSION materials on our own, contrary to our claim we derived it from it's rightful inventors.Besides although we derived our design our finish product is of course original in it's own way. Our innovations on the RPG concept has enabled us to offer a product which to our perception has now made room acoustic treatments affordable.

Furthemore, regardless if let's say we all used tissue paper on our products, but as long as it did the job nobody would be complaining.However we both don't do that so there should be no conflict on the matter.Your methods are distinct from ours that's it.

If you are to do a GOOGLE/YAHOO search the word RPG coined ABFFUSION it will not appear as well. But just for the sake of clearing the field we would like to post our references on the matter.

We do hope this will help clarify the misunderstanding. We battle echo just like you do.Hope we can end this discussion with a peaceful note. If somehow you feel our products are not to your standards ,then we would respect your position as well. That's just fine with us, however let us allow the consumers to be the final judge on the matter. More so if in the end their ears will be the turning point of it's merits or misgivings.

We do commend you for your present endeavors to rid the universe of unwanted reflections in our Listening Rooms, as we are striving to do. If ever we hope the awareness created on the matter through this thread would benefit music lovers for the common good of all.

On September 0f 1987 an article by B.V.PISHA AND CHARLES BILLELO came out on the Magazine AUDIO under the topic DESIGNING A LISTENING ROOM. To some extent we have derived our products from this concept.


Cover of AUDIO magazine


Article on pages 56-57


Sorry for the low resolution picture this is page 60 where reference to the coined word ABFFUSION a trademark of RPG can be read.

Anyone is free to borrow and read our manuals on the subject of our design.

-S-

[et414]

nobody's taking your quotes out of context pal. you just keep digging your own hole. anyway enough about the excuses regarding abflector, abflussive names or whatever coz it seems clear your confused about it as well.

we aren't asking how it was made or what's it made of. what we(or at least I am ) are asking are specifications like absorption coefficients and product data. these data are standard in all the websites selling acoustic treatments & since you claim that your R&D is on "current settings" then that shouldn't be a problem for you

btw since you claim to have derived the design of your abflu-thingie from rpg maybe you should take another look at their design. medyo malayo kasi yung itsura ng room na pinopost mo sa RPG treated rooms e:

        VS.         

        VS.         

[accastil]

it is always very nice to read discussions, its one fast way of learning. but to a point when it is getting personal, its frustrating especially when its from among members of the same forum. im sure the thread starter shares the same sentiments.

this is supposed to be fun, informative, beneficial. otherwise, mods should step in and take control.

i mean no offense to anybody. im just 1 of the many well wishers of pdvd.

[et414]

anong nga yung guarantees mo? wala ka naman guarantee e. all you keep saying is "trust your ears"
it's you who keeps saying your product is "abflussive" and is both diffusive and absorptive at the same time when clearly its just a broadband absorber at best( and it doesn't look thick enough to be a good one either) . wala sa design na difusser e.

C'mon you're the seller here. show us some facts man. some hard data to prove that your products work at least better than a couple of inches of fiberglass.

[streetsmart]

Let me try to provide a summary of the discussions so far:

Mr. S (or more likely his technical partner) has finally provided some technical details on his product.

1. Mr. S is a supplier of acoustic treatment systems, the material of which he and his partners call "abflussive." He has belatedly admitted that "abflussive" is a term which he and his partners have coined. There is nothing wrong with this, except that if this is the case, Mr. S should never use the term "abflussive" without explaining what it means because no one understands it.

2. Mr. S is a strong advocate of the mantra "Let your ears decide." My own views are summed in a previous post. I believe that in very simple situations, such as an A-B comparison, a double-blind comparison, your ears can certainly decide. That is why it is so important to do an audition of equipment. But in more complex situations, such as the acoustic treatment of a home theater (which is partly the topic of this thread), I believe that it is impossible to accomplish the task satisfactorily without the use of calibration instruments. "ET414" has put it quite nicely when he says that its not even possible to balance the volumes of 6 or 8 speakers without the use of instruments, what more the acoustic treatment of a home theater!

Mr. S seems to disagree with this thesis of the importance of instrument calibration. Well, that is his opinion.

3. With regard to the effectiveness of the acoustic treatment that he and his partners fabricate, I have no comment other than seconding what "ET414" says, which is that Mr. S should provide more technical explanations. The product is interesting and may be useful for some Pinoydvd members but not for me because all my walls, including the ceiling are already fully wrapped in acoustic treatment. Nonetheless, if anyone else wants to try his product, why not?

If your present room does not have acoustic treatment and if your budget is only sufficient to buy a few of his panels, you may really not need any instruments to confirm that the room acoustics have improved. However, if you have a bigger budget and you want a comprehensive treatment of your room, my view is that you definitely need a trained engineer/technician with the proper calibration instruments to determine what exactly is the acoustic treatment that you need. It would only be after that study that you should purchase your acoustic treatment.

[MAtZTER]

Now that the thread has gained attention:

HOW DO I ALLOCATE?

For newbies, I would always advise to allocate a good portion of your budget to a good sub and a powerful receiver. I would suggest receivers of the P30+k class.

You will enjoy HT more buying a more powerful receiver & cheaper speakers, than expensive speakers & weak receivers.  You can always easily sell the cheap speakers or turn them into surrounds.

Yun lang, just wanna help.

Mag papasko na. kelangan mag mahalan tayo! 

[et414]

nice one matt

well as for me i'm not replying anymore until S gives hard data proving that his product is more effective than just fabric covered fiberglass 

peace! 

[Compaq]

Now that the thread has gained attention:

HOW DO I ALLOCATE?

For newbies, I would always advise to allocate a good portion of your budget to a good sub and a powerful receiver. I would suggest receivers of the P30+k class.

You will enjoy HT more buying a more powerful receiver & cheaper speakers, than expensive speakers & weak receivers.  You can always easily sell the cheap speakers or turn them into surrounds.

Yun lang, just wanna help.

Mag papasko na. kelangan mag mahalan tayo! 

Finally... hope this will bring back to our senses. Someone needs help, thus, this thread. Before going further, maybe we should ask the thread starter if we're able to help him. 

How to allocate a budget of half-a-million? I often call this situation - "magandang problema" 

Since you didn't mention that you're room is already done and just waiting for gears, I would probably start with the room - design/finishing (paint jobs & woodworks)/furnishings because it's hard to renovate/rearrange once the equipments are already in place. Wiring works - speaker, connectors and power. Probably 20% - 25% of the buget. Then with what's left, aaaah, did I say that this is a good problem. I believe that you will still have enough budget for projector, motorized screen & a 7.1 system.

Now, if you're done with your room - the problem just got better 

Peace ... and Cheers!!!
Compaq

[docelmo]

"On using our ears"
Maybe OT:
A 1 year study in detecting a Murmur(abnormal heart sound) in a neonate ( 1-28 days old baby) was done. They compared 2 expert groups: 1. Neonatologists ( specialist in care of newborn), 2. Pediatric Cardiologists. They wanted to know how these 2 groups could effectively and accurately diagnose using their ears (aided by a stet).

The Result: Neonatologist 78% accuracy rate, Pedia Cardio 83% accuracy rate
which means that both groups were able to detect the murmur well, However at least 25% were still missed! 
Echocardiogram was used to accurately diagnose the murmur and heart disease.

To us doctors, our senses(including our ears) are essential in diagnosing, but having these instruments at our disposal helps in arriving at an accurate diagnosis and therefore treat our patients better...

Re: allocation
 I am taking sir Matz suggestion, a good powerful receiver and sub is a step in the right direction to audio nirvana
 
 Hehehe Having 500k for HT is an excellent problem sir krs606!!!

[audiojunkie]

This amount for gears alone? malaking prolema nga yan.... go for separates pre/pro and amps for more flexiblities of any upgrades in the future.... more powerful amps or latest audio format..     

Ito'y sa akin laang.... 

[gearhead]

i think the stated budget is for equipment. still, kung di pa na-construct yung room... the shape of the room will greatly dictate the need for or the amount of acoustic treatment that may be needed later. so start by designing ur multimedia room well in the first place. my two cents! 

[MAtZTER]

I have been buying lots of custom HT magazines lately & drooling on em (malagkit na nga magazines eh ). How I wish I had a problem like that, how to spend half a million on my HT (in one hurah). My problem would be more like how to spend half a million for my HT in 5 years installment .

Dont forget to allocate for room acoustics! If you dont know much about acoustics, at least deaden your room a bit by using heavy drapes , carpets & furniture w/ fabric instead of leather.

[bumblebee]

Mine would be:

50% - speakers
35% - amp
15% - source

[MAtZTER]

Mine would be:

50% - speakers
35% - amp
15% - source

Sir, how about the video? 

[bumblebee]

Sir, how about the video? 

Kung magkano matitira

[MAtZTER]

Kung magkano matitira

ROFL, same here.

for me, if video is included in the ratio, I would give my audio an equal but preferably a greater percentage of the expenditure.

In a documentary in National Geographic (or Discovery Channel) about stunts & action movies, it was mentioned that the bottomline of action movies is what it excites in us, it was summed up in one word:

ADRENALINE.

For me, a good audio system in HT gives you more slam and bang for "adrenaline" pumping than the display. Thats why I recommend & believe in "power"-ful gears. But audio & video go hand in hand of course. But I would personally favor spending more for the audio.

But thats just me & my 2 cents.

[streetsmart]

Now, this is much better.  Thanks, Matt & thanks to everyone else! 

My 2 cents worth:

Projector 30%
Speakers 30%
Acoustics 20%
Receiver 10%
Balance 10%

In the future:
1. Buy separate power amps
2. Buy video processor

[SoLiDtUbEs]

Hello Mga Igan check this link for the ABC's on Room Acoustic Treatment.
Remember when it comes to this subject you don't have to be the "expert". Yup sure is ironic really to become a crutch believer on measurement and become suspicious of your own God given faculties.

Have a happy read folks! And by the way never follow the path of some here who up now after sooooo long still can't get enough on their room acoustics. Hehehe ciao!

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html

-S

[SoLiDtUbEs]

I have been buying lots of custom HT magazines lately & drooling on em (malagkit na nga magazines eh ). How I wish I had a problem like that, how to spend half a million on my HT (in one hurah). My problem would be more like how to spend half a million for my HT in 5 years installment .

Dont forget to allocate for room acoustics! If you dont know much about acoustics, at least deaden your room a bit by using heavy drapes , carpets & furniture w/ fabric instead of leather.

amen!!

[oweidah]

sir solidtubes,

pareho ba ang produkto mo neto?

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=43305.msg511548#msg511548

if yes, adoy, kaw ba yan? pre, we've met once, certainly didnt impress me you're 55 na. (ano secreto mo? )

regarding this topic, issue is perhaps the 500k budget  

for me na walang ganyang kalake budget, simple joy contentment and satisfaction . ayos na ang chocnut

peace to all, merry X3mas!

[SoLiDtUbEs]

sir solidtubes,

pareho ba ang produkto mo neto?

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=43305.msg511548#msg511548

if yes, adoy, kaw ba yan? pre, we've met once, certainly didnt impress me you're 55 na. (ano secreto mo? )

regarding this topic, issue is perhaps the 500k budget  

for me na walang ganyang kalake budget, simple joy contentment and satisfaction . ayos na ang chocnut

peace to all, merry X3mas!

Yes si audionookie anak ko who is a member and posts the products here for his oldman hehe. I deleted the flame posts tama ka PEACE muna. ET/SS please accept my hand of truce and apologies guys  stay well all!

-S-

[audiojunkie]

Uy, nagkakaroon na ng fishtalk, este Peacetalk pala....   sana more educational for the newbie audience...