Author Topic: Bi-Wiring  (Read 49645 times)

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Offline bumblebee

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #150 on: Aug 29, 2005 at 03:29 PM »
Matt,

jcob described true biamping.

For your setup, see here.

Offline jcob

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #151 on: Aug 29, 2005 at 03:40 PM »
Sir,

Some more articles about bi-amping.

Bi-Amping: Pleasure or Pain? In the world of high end audio, bi-amping is (or has become) a very misunderstood concept. In an attempt to clarify the situation, we’ll have look at the ideal model, define it, and explore the advantages and disadvantages of implementation in a modern audio or video system. First, the definition and background.

Using two separate amplifiers, one for the bass frequencies, another for treble, is an idea that has been around for many, many years. In the professional audio industry (where the concept originated), using multiple amplifiers to serve different frequencies is more than just an option; in many cases an absolute necessity. Audiophiles and videophiles look at bi-amping (or tri-amping) as a way to improve performance, the pro audio industry sees multi-amping as a basic requirement.

Bi-amping or multi-amping (splitting the signal into more than two frequencies) is not only far more efficient, it allows a large sound reinforcement system to be scaled to meet the needs of the application. A traveling show, as an example, encounters many different venues, each with different requirements for good sound reproduction. Large settings demand more speakers to fill the space; some locales require a different mix of drivers to achieve the correct tonal balance (e.g. outdoor venues). A multi-amped modular system allows the flexibility required to fulfill the diverse needs.

The large scale systems for concert venues, auditoria, churches and stadiums require huge amounts of power to accomplish their given tasks. The number of speakers and amount of amplifier power necessary to fill a large auditorium or arena is mind boggling. Without multi-amping, the amount of power necessary would be exponentially greater. Why is this? The answer lies is an important part of multi-amping, and indeed the part of the puzzle most often overlooked by audiophiles; the use of the electronic crossovers.

Passive crossover networks found in consumer speakers waste an enormous amount of power. The often complex network is made up of large coils, chokes, capacitors and resistors. The circuit splits the full range signal into different frequencies (low, mid and high) appropriate for the different drivers in the speaker. Further, a crossover network compensates for efficiency differences in the drivers; woofers demand mode power than midrange drivers which in turn demand more power than tweeters, etc. Further, each of the drivers has different sensitivities, with some requiring far more (of far less) power than other drivers in the same speaker system. In a passive crossover, the excess power not required is dumped into resistors and burned off as heat. This makes for an incredible waste of power.

in addition, passive crossovers do much to degrade the signals that pass through them, and wastes a good deal of amplifier power, so bi-amping is an attractive idea. But there are pitfalls to be recognized before one embarks on that journey.

As we have seen, the key part of the equation is the electronic crossover. Splitting the signal at line level allows us to bypass the lowly passive network. So, buy another amp, an electric crossover and you are off to races. Ah, but it's not that simple. Now comes the task of calibrating the crossover to your speakers; making sure that the drivers are sent the specific frequencies their designers intended, and that  slopes (the rate at which the transition between the frequencies occur, and how much they overlap) are correctly set.  These adjustments are key to not only optimum performance, but system safety; operating a driver beyond its range will likely result in its failure.  Maybe you've read the book, "Poof the Mangled Driver"?

Ok, so what about just using two amplifiers and forgetting about the electronic crossover? Simply using two amplifiers is not true bi-amping and does not offer the same advantages; we still face the limitations of the passive crossover. What about the notion that bi-amping reduces stress on the amplifiers since they are powering only limited frequency ranges? That would be true in a true bi-amp configuration where the frequencies are split ahead of the amplifiers, but in a passive environment both amplifiers receive a full range signal from the preamp and dump that power into the speakers, regardless of whether one is connected to the tweeter or woofer inputs. The only benefit (and it marginal at best) is simply the additional power offered by the second amp.* 

Lastly (and maybe most importantly), the idea of using different types of amplifiers is a real issue. It has long been thought that the ideal situation was to use a sweet, refined low powered amp in top (tubes, for instance), teamed up with a powerful  (usually solid state) amp to control the bass. This may indeed produce nice extreme top and bottom, but rarely did the two disparate sonic characteristics of the two dissimilar amplifiers mesh well in the critical midrange area. Further, matching signal level between both amplifiers extremely difficult, maybe impossible without sophisticated measurement equipment. So, more often than not, pseudo bi-amping, or poorly executed true bi-amping causes more problems than it cures.

In most cases, I am not a fan of bi-amping a high end audio or video systems. As we have seen, it can be a fairly complex (not to mention expensive) modification. Proper implementation requires the use of multiple amplifiers and an outboard electronic crossover. This mandates bypassing the internal passive crossover, which requires work inside the speaker, and will clearly void your warranty. There is significant expense in hardware: the additional amplifiers and crossover, not to mention the extra cables required. Further, we dramatically add to the complexity of the system. Though it can offer substantial benefits in the right set-up, in most every instance the listener is better served by using the funds to upgrade components in the system.


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*  There may be a bit more advantage obtained when one employs two identical amplifiers, one for each speaker – vertical bi-amping.

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #152 on: Sep 01, 2005 at 11:05 AM »
Wow, thats why I love this site,  people are always willing to help. Thanks for the reference guys.

So let me get this straight, in layman's terms, I have to open the speaker panels to remove some sort of internal wire that connects the LF & HF for it to truly be bi-amped?

TIA  :)

Offline jerix

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #153 on: Sep 01, 2005 at 04:07 PM »
matZter, just curious  ::) Isnt it they say that the HK is skydistance better sounding than kenwood, so why do u want to use kenwood to power up your speakers in the first place? tnx
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Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #154 on: Sep 01, 2005 at 04:31 PM »
matZter, just curious  ::) Isnt it they say that the HK is skydistance better sounding than kenwood, so why do u want to use kenwood to power up your speakers in the first place? tnx

Duh, didnt know that :-\. Actually, I am just curious to try the bi-amping concept, thats all. I want to hear if the sound will really be better. My plan is to use the Kenwood for LF and the HK for HF.

Sa bagay I am happy with the sound of the HK. Yung nga lang, just curious. The Kenwood THX amp will be a spare amp gathering dust if I dont try it  :)

Offline jerix

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #155 on: Sep 02, 2005 at 12:46 PM »
bro sabi lang naman nila yun, pero whether or not that is true to you, the only true judge will be ur ears. ;D  ;D
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Offline av_phile1

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #156 on: Sep 02, 2005 at 05:40 PM »
Wow, thats why I love this site,  people are always willing to help. Thanks for the reference guys.

So let me get this straight, in layman's terms, I have to open the speaker panels to remove some sort of internal wire that connects the LF & HF for it to truly be bi-amped?

TIA  :)

Nope, after opening the speaker panels, you simply disable the crossover network by either shorting the input and the output of the network, or simply unsolder the wires to the speakers and connecting new wires to the woofer and tweeter directly to the speaker's HF and LF terminals respectively,  totally bypassing the crossovers. 

The two power amplifers should each see the woofer or tweeter directly.  You should purchase a line level active electronic crossover device that feeds from the preamp output and, if two-way, splits the preamp signal to two power amps - one for woof and another for tweet.  The electronic crossover should have adjustments for filtering slope, crossover frequency and output level for each power amp. 

Saw a professinal active crossover with excellent contols at 5th ave sometime last year costing around 22T, if i recall right.

The power amps should be identical ideally.  In terms of GAIN.  Not necessarily same Power rating.  Also in the mid-range characteristic.  Because that's where there'd be some overlap between the tweets and the woofs. 

If you think about it, you are really bi-amping when you have a powered subwoofer sharing the same crossover points in your set-up 
« Last Edit: Sep 02, 2005 at 05:50 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #157 on: Sep 02, 2005 at 05:54 PM »
Duh, didnt know that :-\. Actually, I am just curious to try the bi-amping concept, thats all. I want to hear if the sound will really be better. My plan is to use the Kenwood for LF and the HK for HF.

Sa bagay I am happy with the sound of the HK. Yung nga lang, just curious. The Kenwood THX amp will be a spare amp gathering dust if I dont try it  :)

So you plan to use two receivers for bi-amping?  Does one have a power or Main IN?  And does one have PRE-Outs? 

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #158 on: Sep 05, 2005 at 10:54 AM »
So you plan to use two receivers for bi-amping?  Does one have a power or Main IN?  And does one have PRE-Outs? 

No, sir AV. The Kenwood is just a power amp. The HK AVR has the necessary pre outs.

I have the setup ready in our new place but I still havent bi-amped it yet. I still need the electrician to do the in-wall cable management.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #159 on: Sep 05, 2005 at 12:20 PM »
No, sir AV. The Kenwood is just a power amp. The HK AVR has the necessary pre outs.

I have the setup ready in our new place but I still havent bi-amped it yet. I still need the electrician to do the in-wall cable management.

So the HK will act as a preamp.  Does it have Power In?  Otherwise, you still need one other power amp and an electronic crossover. 

Offline MAtZTER

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #160 on: Sep 05, 2005 at 01:28 PM »
I dont think the HK has a power-in.

Electronic cross-over... hmm, complications, complications.. ;D

I thought bi-amping was simple...Hehe

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #161 on: Sep 05, 2005 at 02:00 PM »
True bi-amping is a real complication.  But the results are worth it if you get it right.  And you're not gonna get it right if you don't have an active preamp-level electronic crossover.  Without it, you'd just be bi-wiring, using separate power amps for each set of wire.   ;D

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #162 on: Sep 16, 2005 at 02:51 PM »
hi guys! do u also biwire the center? or for fronts lang? n should i use the same length n brand of wires with it? tnx ???

Offline av_phile1

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #163 on: Sep 19, 2005 at 12:40 PM »
If you believe in biwiring,  then I suppose you should biwire all your biwireable speakers.  Doesn't really make sense to be selective, does it? 

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #164 on: Sep 19, 2005 at 02:44 PM »
sir av! i myt just try wat we hav tokd abt sa PM! :D

Offline ganicru

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #165 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 10:38 AM »
Just be patient in searching for sound improvement on your set up. After I settled for my gears (at least what I can afford), speaker wires specifically biwiring configuration really makes a diference. I started with single #12 AWG with the stock brass bridge on, alternating the connection from LF to HF. I tried more heavier gauge, still alters the sound repro. Finally I settled for thicker gauge on the LF  and #10AWG on the HF and am satisfied. Quality is commensurate with price, my belief.
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Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #166 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:22 PM »
bro ganicru! u said u started with single #12 AWG with the stock brass bridge on, alternating the connection from LF to HF... does it matter where u hook the wires (HF or LF) on a single wire setup? wat have u noticed with that setup? tnx!

Offline oweidah

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #167 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:41 PM »
sir kt, re: biwire by changing stock speaker jumper with speaker cable. im now experimenting with that- paiba-iba cable strips as jumper but with only one speaker cable connected to the LF (tho imo biwire w/two cable runs is still better). from my xperience, yes may noticeable difference.... :)
« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:42 PM by awadeh al »

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #168 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 05:51 PM »
bro awadeh! post pa ur findings bro! have u tried wiring lang sa HF vs sa LF? or alternate 1 yung sa LF & another strand sa HF? wat did u use as reference naman? audio or movie? tnx bro

Offline oweidah

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #169 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:02 PM »
bro kt, iba-iba resulta mix-match ko but constant yung speaker cable to LF at iba2 yung jumper cable strip (5+") to HF. im sure sa system mo ganon din kasi system synergy yan. btw iv tried 3 brandd cables at cat5e as jumper cable strip to HF. at pag pinalitan ko ung speaker cable thats connected to the LF /amp, nag-iiba din ang tunog. sarap nga eh, i dont need to change my components (amp/cd/speakers) yet iba-iba tunog! :)
« Last Edit: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:10 PM by awadeh al »

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #170 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:14 PM »
bro awadeh! ah talaga? so laging sa LF mo connect yung wires mo? di mo natry if sa HF naman? ano yung difference na nanotice mo?

Offline oweidah

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #171 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:20 PM »
bro kt - sent u pm... hirap mag-monitor kasi pag papalit-palit. actually i did this xprement kasi kapagod 2 cable runs palit if  bi-wire from amp to LF and HF. so i cut strips and jumper na lang. btw wats yor HT/audio system and kbols?

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #172 on: Oct 04, 2005 at 06:28 PM »
bro awadeh u got PM!

Offline yvesjae

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #173 on: Jan 05, 2006 at 05:23 PM »
What would be a preferrable wire gauge ratio?

14GA for HF/12GA for LF
or
16GA for HF/14GA for LF

Offline Fox Mulder

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #174 on: Feb 21, 2006 at 02:03 PM »
Has anyone tried bi-wiring an MS 904 powered by a HK AVR230? Any improvement?

I am plannning to try it this weekend using a standard gauge 14 wire (yung nabibili sa ACE). Magkakaroon kaya ng improvement or should I go for a thicker wire for the LF?

Offline kt

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #175 on: Feb 21, 2006 at 02:23 PM »
bro fox! post your findings pls! same tyo ng speakers eh n im wondering if big difference nga...tnx bro

Offline Fox Mulder

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #176 on: Feb 27, 2006 at 04:50 PM »
bro fox! post your findings pls! same tyo ng speakers eh n im wondering if big difference nga...tnx bro

OK here's the verdict. Bi-wiring WORKS!!! ;D

Naging mas "clearer" yung tunog ng speakeres specially yung highs nya. At 1st parang medyo "matining" yung tunog but after ko sya timplahin with my subs OK an OK na!!! .....but I think mas ok nga pag mas makapag ang wires na gamitin for the LF.

I enjoyed listening to Sting's Fileds of Gold and Boys to Men CD last weekend.

The best :)

Offline kupstah

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Bi-Wiring
« Reply #177 on: Jul 18, 2006 at 10:12 AM »
Hi all, kinda new at this and this will sound stupid.

My friend said to bi-wire my speakers to my integrated amp so I followed the pied piper. Connecting the speaker wires to the speakers was easy but putting 2 pairs into the amp terminals is a bitch!  ???

I can't get the two wires into the small hole of my amp speaker terminals. Btw, the amp's a NAD 352 and I'm using generic 14g wire.  What would you guys suggest to get those wires in that little hole?

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #178 on: Jul 18, 2006 at 10:28 AM »
Use wire with smaller gauge for example gauge 16.

Offline Munskie

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Re: Bi-Wiring
« Reply #179 on: Jul 18, 2006 at 10:31 AM »
you can also try banana plugs kung pwede sa amp's binding posts... :)