Author Topic: Plasma vs LCD ? (Read 279104 times)

meister_r · « **Reply #1170 on:** Oct 12, 2009 at 06:41 PM »

Quote from: nels76 on Oct 12, 2009 at 11:13 AM

I have personally tested Gaming on an LCD vs Plasma Panel and I could say LCD wins.
LCD used was a Bravia 32 inch V1 (2006 Model) and a Pana 42C10 Plasma.
Same PS3, same connection (via Component only), same Game (LBP).
The LCD gave luscious and bright colors and a sharp edge whilst darker and quite soft edge naman sa Plasma.

Pero sa Movies and Cable, taob talaga si LCD sa Plasma.

We can therefore say that you should get LCD or Plasma depending on your intended use.
So if you have the moolah, a separate setup dapat - a Plasma for your Movies and LCD for Gaming. Masyado magastos.

Sir any thoughts about Panasonic TC-P42S1? Ive heard nice reviews about this panny. Any inputs will help

Im into movies like 75%... hehe

Thanks guys!

Thanks

nels76 · « **Reply #1171 on:** Oct 13, 2009 at 10:14 AM »

^^ Sorry, Sir. I cannot give you feedback on that unit as I don't own that specific model and I am not currently hunting for Flat Panels (whether LCD or Plasma).

Maybe you can ask some guys there at the Pana Thread. They may be able to give you some feedback about the specific model that you mentioned.

rony · « **Reply #1172 on:** Oct 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM »

mga sir ask ko lang me mga plasma na nasa 32" lang laki?

pchin · « **Reply #1173 on:** Oct 15, 2009 at 08:43 AM »

Plasma Defense Coalition Calls For End To Misinformation

Plasma displays could soon be banned for sale in California, but according to the PDC, the information leading to that ban is just plain wrong.

The California Energy Commission has been considering a ban on plasma displays for some time now and it seems that the information they’re going by is a little bit off. Jim Polumbo, president of the Plasma Defense Coalition sums up some of the inaccuracies.

“The Commission's FAQ document shows a chart that compares CRT, LCD, and Plasma technologies. However, they use three examples of products that have never been marketed in the United States,” he says of some of the information they’ve shown. “Further, the energy efficiency comparisons for these imaginary televisions are grossly exaggerated.”

A chart on the CEC’s website comparing LED to plasma displays uses some fairly odd numbers as well. It states that a 42” LCD television – presumably the average – uses 203 watts, while a 42” plasma uses 271. According to Panasonic’s website, their new 42” Viera S1 plasma has an average power consumption of 173 watts. According to the PDC, Energy Star certified plasmas range from 142 to 195 watts, far under the 271 reported.

Polumbo concludes, “We have objected to this inaccurate and misleading portrayal of our industry's finest products, especially given the enormous strides that our members have made to increase energy efficiency over the past several years.”

highdefdigest

ferdinand · « **Reply #1174 on:** Oct 15, 2009 at 01:10 PM »

The Best talaga yung plasma to movies.!!! kapag sa games may naiiwan ng shadow (seldom naman)

james16 · « **Reply #1175 on:** Oct 16, 2009 at 04:46 AM »

Quote from: rony on Oct 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM

mga sir ask ko lang me mga plasma na nasa 32" lang laki?

alam ko last year meron 32"plasma ang LG

titopepe · « **Reply #1176 on:** Nov 07, 2009 at 03:03 PM »

sir carlo, how can i see the phospor lag?
i play pc games at my plasma, cod4, left4dead, fallout etc

why i can't see that phosphor lag thing...

blued888 · « **Reply #1177 on:** Nov 07, 2009 at 05:07 PM »

Quote from: titopepe on Nov 07, 2009 at 03:03 PM

sir carlo, how can i see the phospor lag?
i play pc games at my plasma, cod4, left4dead, fallout etc

why i can't see that phosphor lag thing...

Meron siyang YouTube video na ginawa to demonstrate the green phosphor lag. Maybe he can point you to the link once he gets to read this.

titopepe · « **Reply #1178 on:** Nov 07, 2009 at 08:41 PM »

Quote from: blued888 on Nov 07, 2009 at 05:07 PM

Meron siyang YouTube video na ginawa to demonstrate the green phosphor lag. Maybe he can point you to the link once he gets to read this.

as i remember, the game was ninja gaiden.
as of now, i don't have a ps3 yet.

good thing, i can't see that phosphor lag thing.

blued888 · « **Reply #1179 on:** Nov 07, 2009 at 08:47 PM »

Quote from: titopepe on Nov 07, 2009 at 08:41 PM

as i remember, the game was ninja gaiden.
as of now, i don't have a ps3 yet.

good thing, i can't see that phosphor lag thing.

If I were you... If you can't see the green phosphor lag thing, don't hunt it down because once you do... You'll always notice it.

brightfame · « **Reply #1180 on:** Nov 09, 2009 at 09:29 AM »

Is the phosphor lag for plasmas something you could get used to or minimize by calibrating some settings? Im thinking of switching to plasma from my older LCD TV.

I just noticed recently my TV suffers from horizontal/vertical banding which seems to be getting worse, especially scenes with dull backgrounds (grey walls, skies) . I thought it was some kind of image retention, but after some research I'm convinced it's more of an issue with back-light being uneven. Now its hard for me to watch anything without obsessing about the lines.

Everything I'm hearing about plasma (better pq, black levels and colors) seems to be a reason for me to try it out, I'm just thinking that this phosphor lag issue might just be another thing that will keep me from enjoying movies.

Trying to decide between buying a better LCD TV or switching to Plasma. I use my TV for watching movies/dvds 70% of the time, pc gaming 20% and maybe surfing 10% of the time.

barrister · « **Reply #1181 on:** Nov 09, 2009 at 10:49 AM »

Quote from: brightfame on Nov 09, 2009 at 09:29 AM

Is the phosphor lag for plasmas something you could get used to or minimize by calibrating some settings? Im thinking of switching to plasma from my older LCD TV.

No, phosphor lag is not affected by calibration; but yes, phosphor lag is one of those things that you eventually get used to.

Plasma cells have red, green and blue phosphor coatings. There is a slight difference in each phosphor's excitation/ decay times, with green being the slowest. The slower speed of green phosphors causes green fringing, especially on fast-moving areas with high contrast.

The solution is to manufacture a panel with faster green phosphors. No amount of calibration will help.

Quote from: brightfame on Nov 09, 2009 at 09:29 AM

I just noticed recently my TV suffers from horizontal/vertical banding which seems to be getting worse, especially scenes with dull backgrounds (grey walls, skies) . I thought it was some kind of image retention, but after some research I'm convinced it's more of an issue with back-light being uneven. Now its hard for me to watch anything without obsessing about the lines.

Maybe the screen uniformity issue on your set is not really getting worse. It's just that you have become more familiar with the issue, and you now know the types of scenes wherein the problem will be most obvious.

Quote from: brightfame on Nov 09, 2009 at 09:29 AM

Everything I'm hearing about plasma (better pq, black levels and colors) seems to be a reason for me to try it out, I'm just thinking that this phosphor lag issue might just be another thing that will keep me from enjoying movies.

Older plasma panels had worse phosphor lag issues, but the 2009 Panasonics have virtually eliminated the problem.

Some people are more sensititve to phosphor lag than others. Most people cannot see phosphor lag even on the old plasma models. On the other hand, some people can still see phosphor lag even on 2009 Panasonic plasmas.

On my Panny 50C10 (2009 model), I can still see some slight phosphor lag on movies, but it's now so slight that I can hardly find it anymore even if I tried. Maybe it's worse on games, but I haven't tried it yet since I don't game.

There's no way to predict how sensitive your eyes will be to phosphor lag. You will have to audition a model you like, then see for yourself. There's just no way around it.

Quote from: brightfame on Nov 09, 2009 at 09:29 AM

Trying to decide between buying a better LCD TV or switching to Plasma. I use my TV for watching movies/dvds 70% of the time, pc gaming 20% and maybe surfing 10% of the time.

For gaming and surfing, I think LCD is better.

For movies, it will depend on personal preference:

- If you like watching in a dark room, plasma will be much better. In a dark room, plasma will have blacker black levels and near-perfect screen uniformity, while LCD will have lighter black levels and more obvious screen uniformity issues.

- If you want an extremely sharp and detailed picture with "pop", then LCD is for you. But if you want your picture to look as close as possible to film in a cinema, then it has to be a plasma.

barrister · « **Reply #1182 on:** Nov 09, 2009 at 11:12 AM »

Quote from: blued888 on Nov 07, 2009 at 05:07 PM

Meron siyang YouTube video na ginawa to demonstrate the green phosphor lag. Maybe he can point you to the link once he gets to read this.

Eto yon:

Quote from: Carlo777 on Jul 14, 2009 at 02:47 AM

A recurring PM I get is almost always about the phosphor lag. Luckily, I still have the video I made about the lag, and took the liberty of uploading it on a Youtube account.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm63BEhHWUk

Hopefully, this will show you guys what to look for, and I'll also be taking a video of the lag on the C10, if it's as noticeable as it was on older models.

=================================

But don't forget to note our comments:

Quote from: barrister on Jul 14, 2009 at 10:12 AM

That's right, you really have to see the TV in person before you can decide.

Remember that on the YouTube vid, you're not looking at the actual green trails --- you're merely looking at a video of the green trails.

If the video cam is introducing its own artifacts, the green trails as recorded on the YouTube vid might look worse than the actual green trails in real life.

But for those who have difficulty seeing the green trails, sir Carlo's YouTube vid is very helpful for the purpose of demonstrating, with reasonable accuracy, how the phosphor lag should look like.

Quote from: Carlo777 on Jul 14, 2009 at 11:44 AM

... POST UPDATE: barrister is right, the lag, actually looks worst on video then in real life. ...

wunder9 · « **Reply #1183 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 04:04 AM »

I use Pana 42LZ80 for pc surfing & videos. Very happy with it. For the next few days I get to use my brother-in-law's 42PV80 until he arrives from abroad. My impressions of the PV80:

1. It is quite good, maybe a bit better than the LZ80 for videos.
   a. Colors are good although LZ80 is also good.
   b. Less motion blur but still present.
   c. Less banding but still present.
   d. Blacks are very black but LZ80 shows better details in shadows.
e. Non-hd material is where the PV80 has clear advantage over the LZ80. Old, low resolution videos still look great on the PV80 but very dull and pixelated on the LZ80.

2. PV80 is no match for LZ80 for pc use.
   a. Text/fonts are really bad on the PV80.
   b. Still pictures also bad.

Maybe a full hd plasma would perform better. PV80's lower resolution is a big handicap for pc use.

brightfame · « **Reply #1184 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 08:54 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Nov 09, 2009 at 10:49 AM

No, phosphor lag is not affected by calibration; but yes, phosphor lag is one of those things that you eventually get used to.

Plasma cells have red, green and blue phosphor coatings. There is a slight difference in each phosphor's excitation/ decay times, with green being the slowest. The slower speed of green phosphors causes green fringing, especially on fast-moving areas with high contrast.

The solution is to manufacture a panel with faster green phosphors. No amount of calibration will help.

Maybe the screen uniformity issue on your set is not really getting worse. It's just that you have become more familiar with the issue, and you now know the types of scenes wherein the problem will be most obvious.

Older plasma panels had worse phosphor lag issues, but the 2009 Panasonics have virtually eliminated the problem.

Some people are more sensititve to phosphor lag than others. Most people cannot see phosphor lag even on the old plasma models. On the other hand, some people can still see phosphor lag even on 2009 Panasonic plasmas.

On my Panny 50C10 (2009 model), I can still see some slight phosphor lag on movies, but it's now so slight that I can hardly find it anymore even if I tried. Maybe it's worse on games, but I haven't tried it yet since I don't game.

There's no way to predict how sensitive your eyes will be to phosphor lag. You will have to audition a model you like, then see for yourself. There's just no way around it.

For gaming and surfing, I think LCD is better.

For movies, it will depend on personal preference:

- If you like watching in a dark room, plasma will be much better. In a dark room, plasma will have blacker black levels and near-perfect screen uniformity, while LCD will have lighter black levels and more obvious screen uniformity issues.

- If you want an extremely sharp and detailed picture with "pop", then LCD is for you. But if you want your picture to look as close as possible to film in a cinema, then it has to be a plasma.

Thanks Barrister,
I guess I will have to audition soon to see how tolerable the lag is on newer plasmas. I guess it seems LCD is a more logical choice for me since I do game and surf occasionally, but I'm hoping not all LCD TVs suffer from the 2 things that bother me most about my current flat panel: First is the very annoying screen banding which often takes enjoyment away from watching HD content (It's like watching through dirty glass at times). Second is the poor black level which I miss from the days when I would use a CRT TV or monitor.

Any suggestions on LCD TVs with good black levels and no history of screen uniformity?

Stagea · « **Reply #1185 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 09:17 AM »

When looking at Plasmas, also check if you can notice any flicker. Most current Plasmas refresh fast enough that it's almost imperceptible, but it's there. Some people notice it, some people don't. It makes me teary with some panels, but don't usually get bothered by it with most others. If you notice it enough, it will eventually cause eyestrain.

wunder9 · « **Reply #1186 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 09:36 AM »

Quote from: Stagea on Nov 10, 2009 at 09:17 AM

When looking at Plasmas, also check if you can notice any flicker. Most current Plasmas refresh fast enough that it's almost imperceptible, but it's there. Some people notice it, some people don't. It makes me teary with some panels, but don't usually get bothered by it with most others. If you notice it enough, it will eventually cause eyestrain.

Yes flicker is noticeable on PV80. The reflective glass panel is also very distracting. Reminds me of CRT days w/c i disliked very much.

The real thing that's amazing with this PV80 is it was totally submerged in floodwater during Ondoy. Shop where my bro-in-law bought it said bring it to them and it was fixed!

barrister · « **Reply #1187 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 11:23 AM »

Quote from: brightfame on Nov 10, 2009 at 08:54 AM

Any suggestions on LCD TVs with good black levels and no history of screen uniformity?

All LCD TVs have screen uniformity issues. The much-anticipated Samsung LEDs were a big disappointment, since they also had uniformity problems.

Quote from: wunder9 on Nov 10, 2009 at 09:36 AM

Yes flicker is noticeable on PV80. ...

Quote from: Stagea on Nov 10, 2009 at 09:17 AM

When looking at Plasmas, also check if you can notice any flicker. Most current Plasmas refresh fast enough that it's almost imperceptible, but it's there. Some people notice it, some people don't. It makes me teary with some panels, but don't usually get bothered by it with most others. If you notice it enough, it will eventually cause eyestrain.

Thanks for the posts. I didn't think any member had problems with plasma flicker.

I am not sensitive to flicker, and I don't see flicker even on traditional 60Hz CRT TVs. Panny 2009 plasmas have a very high frequency of 600Hz, so I was surprised to learn that some members see flicker on those units.

However, I did see some obvious flicker on a showroom demo of a Panny 50S10 playing Blu-ray at 24 fps setting. On a 24 fps setting, frequency might be around 240Hz on a 2009 Panny plasma, and as low as 192Hz on a Panny PV80 (2008).

Here are pics (4 frames) from photographer swiftbennett showing plasma flicker:

At a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec. from the camera, the plasma sets show flicker, but the LCD sets are flicker-free.

Stagea · « **Reply #1188 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 01:15 PM »

Aside from refresh rate, the phosphor decay time is also a big factor with PDP flicker. Faster screens (like those that don't exhibit green tails) darken much quicker before the next excitation, this causes a greater luminance difference between dark and bright periods, which makes flicker more perceptible at the same refresh rate. Of course refresh rate is also a factor, which in 600Hz PDPs is usually upto 60hz (10 subfields per frame), together with subfield rate (which reduces time lapses between discharge periods).

I'm quite sensitive to flicker, which is why I used to run pro crt monitors (refreshing at 100Hz or higher). I can notice flicker with most PDPs, but only get annoyed if it's pretty bad. This gets worse if you have fluorescent lighting, as these lamps also flicker --- creating a strobe-like effect.

Quote from: barrister on Nov 10, 2009 at 11:23 AM

Thanks for the posts. I didn't think any member had problems with plasma flicker.

I am not sensitive to flicker, and I don't see flicker even on traditional 60Hz CRT TVs. Panny 2009 plasmas have a very high frequency of 600Hz, so I was surprised to learn that some members see flicker on those units.

Here are pics (4 frames) from photographer swiftbennett showing plasma flicker:

At a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec. from the camera, the plasma sets show flicker, but the LCD sets are flicker-free.

Clondalkin · « **Reply #1189 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 02:25 PM »

I haven't noticed any flickering both on the plasma and the LCD, and I thought Im quite sensitive to CRT flicker already.

ABCmotorparts · « **Reply #1190 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 03:50 PM »

Quote from: Clondalkin on Nov 10, 2009 at 02:25 PM

I haven't noticed any flickering both on the plasma and the LCD, and I thought Im quite sensitive to CRT flicker already.

Same here, and all I thought flicker free na ang mga ito...

ABCmotorparts · « **Reply #1191 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 03:56 PM »

Pardon the ignorance guys,
I already used the SEARCH function of the forum,
may discussion na ba tayo dito about LED TVs..?

ABC

vx2 · « **Reply #1192 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 04:42 PM »

A (very?) small minority of people are highly sensitive to flickering that even the latest plasma's still affect them, although the flicker isn't as bad as the old ones.

barrister · « **Reply #1193 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 04:48 PM »

Quote from: ABCmotorparts on Nov 10, 2009 at 03:56 PM

Pardon the ignorance guys,
I already used the SEARCH function of the forum,
may discussion na ba tayo dito about LED TVs..?

ABC

Meron di sir, pero konti lang yata ang interesado:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=97832.0
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=96404.0

Clondalkin · « **Reply #1194 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 05:16 PM »

I really fancy LED backlit LCD monitors for the PC and laptop screens but I cannot fully appreciate yung advantages for big screen LCD HDTVs (yet) - I don't quite get it to be honest.

ABCmotorparts · « **Reply #1195 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 05:44 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Nov 10, 2009 at 04:48 PM

Meron di sir, pero konti lang yata ang interesado:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=97832.0
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=96404.0

Thanks for the links sir,...
Just became curious about it when I saw them on display at SM Appliance center
when I went there last week...

Cheers,
ABC

titopepe · « **Reply #1196 on:** Nov 10, 2009 at 09:00 PM »

i have samsung 2333hd, for pc use.
but i still prefer plasma tv for pc gaming and surfing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm63BEhHWUk

didn't see this phosphor lag on my tv... hehe
also my three brothers we're looking for it..

Stagea · « **Reply #1197 on:** Nov 11, 2009 at 10:53 AM »

The phosphors darken very quickly, so most people aren't able to notice the lag when in front of the actual TV. It's the person's camera capturing frames with the green trail that kind of emphasized the problem in this video imho.

I'm not very sensitive to green ghosting when looking at actual PDPs, but I do see it sometimes on fast-moving contrasty scenes. I guess I'm not trained to look for it (I'd rather not see it so I won't be bothered). It's just flickering that bothers me with plasma displays (aside from image retention).

eoman · « **Reply #1198 on:** Nov 28, 2009 at 04:13 PM »

Hi guys still having some trouble on what to choose between plasma or lcd because of these issues, hope you can help me out..

Plasma Users
* is burn-in or image retention still an issue on 2009 plasma models??
* is it really required to do an initial burn-in for 100hrs? and after that does it mean that I won't be experience any image retention anymore?

LCD Users
* is back light bleeding were in there are uneven bright spots across the screen a big issue? I mean does it really hunt all of LCD tvs and are there no LCD tvs that is safe from it?

Thanks

Stagea · « **Reply #1199 on:** Nov 29, 2009 at 04:08 AM »

I have both plasma and lcd, but I haven't owned them long enough to be an expert. Here's my take however:

Plasma Burn-in - It still happens, but you shouldn't lose sleep over it. As long as you use your TV responsibly, you should be ok. Use screen-savers and power-saving options if they are available, they keep the picture moving and dim the image after extended idling. Also, if you don't stretch the image fully, often there are options for grey bars instead of black ones. This ensures that the unused pixels would still get some action (to equalize wear). Initial burn-in just tells you that you should be extra careful in the first 100hrs, because the display is susceptible to image-retention during this period. In the Panasonic manual, it recommends to always stretch the picture to fill the screen and to use overscan during these first 100 hrs. Image retention can still happen after this, but the display is supposedly more resilient after this period.

Backlight Uniformity - Virtually all LCD displays have some variation in brightness across the screen. Some are less obvious than others. It's best to see the image yourself, to gauge if you notice it, and if you get bothered by it. For most panels in reasonable lighting, if I don't look for it, I don't usually notice. If you plan to view the TV in a dark room, ask the store if they can turn off the lights to see how the panel would look like in the dark.

Quote from: eoman on Nov 28, 2009 at 04:13 PM

Hi guys still having some trouble on what to choose between plasma or lcd because of these issues, hope you can help me out..

Plasma Users
* is burn-in or image retention still an issue on 2009 plasma models??
* is it really required to do an initial burn-in for 100hrs? and after that does it mean that I won't be experience any image retention anymore?

LCD Users
* is back light bleeding were in there are uneven bright spots across the screen a big issue? I mean does it really hunt all of LCD tvs and are there no LCD tvs that is safe from it?

Thanks

I